AndyNarwhal
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No problem!
Coralife T5 strip light issues
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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Still crap
"Just like any aquarium fixture they were never designed to be user serviceable beyond changing lamps."?!
This is very disingenuous, especially as you essentially contradict yourself just two paragraphs later. That also must be why Coralife and others sell/sold replacement ballasts for years and years and even designed their CF fixtures for ease of ballast replacement. The fact is that "low profile" CL T5s are not serviceable by users or anyone else for that matter because of their incomparably cheap design. As for liability issues, they are no different for light fixtures than for automobiles or any other electrical/mechanical device that is within the provenance of DIYers which can/are generally addressed through manufacturer disclaimers. And while a manufacturer could choose to avoid any such issues through design, this reads like a smokescreen to obscure the fact that CL T5s are cheaply designed disposable fixtures - when their ballasts go they're junk.
I have a few light fixtures that must be at least 20 years old and some CL CFs that have been is service for over a decade - if you're trying to convince me that CL's new generation of disposable fixtures are a good thing and an improvement over the past, save it. I buy equipment on the basis of performance and longevity (and without an employee discount) – seeing how Coralife "low profile" (that is to say, non-HO) T5 fixtures have a lifetime of only about two years, they fail miserably on both accounts. It's one thing (and enough) to have to replace bulbs every year - replacing fixtures is something that shouldn't have to be done every other year.
It's not like there's not enough stuff going into landfills already without willfully adding millions of light fixtures to the mix, and with technology being what is is, there's no good reason not to design a fixture with a snap-in externally accessible replaceable ballast (not unlike changing a fuse) unless of course it's a business model along the lines of "planned obsolescence" that is counting on a high rate of replacement sales or one whose goal is simply to deliver product at the lowest possible price. Whatever the case, given that there are only two "working" parts (a switch and a ballast) apart from the bulbs in CL's flimsy excuse for a fixture (foil reflector, unsecured endcaps, press-fit housing), I hope the thirty-seven cents that someone saved on opting for a marginal excuse for a ballast made the shareholders happy - just delights me no end.
Cheers
PS - Bulbs weren't the issue. That's generally the first thing I check when a light shuts down, just hadn't bother to check this last time because I've gotten so used to these CL units just quitting on me.
"Just like any aquarium fixture they were never designed to be user serviceable beyond changing lamps."?!
This is very disingenuous, especially as you essentially contradict yourself just two paragraphs later. That also must be why Coralife and others sell/sold replacement ballasts for years and years and even designed their CF fixtures for ease of ballast replacement. The fact is that "low profile" CL T5s are not serviceable by users or anyone else for that matter because of their incomparably cheap design. As for liability issues, they are no different for light fixtures than for automobiles or any other electrical/mechanical device that is within the provenance of DIYers which can/are generally addressed through manufacturer disclaimers. And while a manufacturer could choose to avoid any such issues through design, this reads like a smokescreen to obscure the fact that CL T5s are cheaply designed disposable fixtures - when their ballasts go they're junk.
I have a few light fixtures that must be at least 20 years old and some CL CFs that have been is service for over a decade - if you're trying to convince me that CL's new generation of disposable fixtures are a good thing and an improvement over the past, save it. I buy equipment on the basis of performance and longevity (and without an employee discount) – seeing how Coralife "low profile" (that is to say, non-HO) T5 fixtures have a lifetime of only about two years, they fail miserably on both accounts. It's one thing (and enough) to have to replace bulbs every year - replacing fixtures is something that shouldn't have to be done every other year.
It's not like there's not enough stuff going into landfills already without willfully adding millions of light fixtures to the mix, and with technology being what is is, there's no good reason not to design a fixture with a snap-in externally accessible replaceable ballast (not unlike changing a fuse) unless of course it's a business model along the lines of "planned obsolescence" that is counting on a high rate of replacement sales or one whose goal is simply to deliver product at the lowest possible price. Whatever the case, given that there are only two "working" parts (a switch and a ballast) apart from the bulbs in CL's flimsy excuse for a fixture (foil reflector, unsecured endcaps, press-fit housing), I hope the thirty-seven cents that someone saved on opting for a marginal excuse for a ballast made the shareholders happy - just delights me no end.
Cheers
PS - Bulbs weren't the issue. That's generally the first thing I check when a light shuts down, just hadn't bother to check this last time because I've gotten so used to these CL units just quitting on me.
Last edited:
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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Sorry
Andy-
My apologies if that came across harsh, nothing personal intended, suppose I'm just more than a little frustrated by our hyper-consumer society and the needless and enduring availability of manufactured goods that seem destined for trash heaps and occasionally recycling yards. The fact that I have light fixtures that are no longer good for anything is probably secondary, hope your company makes those higher quality ballasts universal at some point for its entire product line.
Best,
Samuel
Andy-
My apologies if that came across harsh, nothing personal intended, suppose I'm just more than a little frustrated by our hyper-consumer society and the needless and enduring availability of manufactured goods that seem destined for trash heaps and occasionally recycling yards. The fact that I have light fixtures that are no longer good for anything is probably secondary, hope your company makes those higher quality ballasts universal at some point for its entire product line.
Best,
Samuel
AndyNarwhal
Members
Ok let me go through this point by point.
Where a fixture was designed to be user servicable, the components are put in with quick disconnect connections like the older Coralife PC fixtures that Tony has were made with. To do this however the manufacturer needs to know that the fixture will never meet UL standards for approval. This is a non-issue with fixtures that are designed for marine aquaria since there isn't a fixture in the hobby that will meet UL standards for a marine aquarium (nothing will pass the spray test). The low profile T5's were made with a custom ballast in order to achieve the low profile. These ballasts would never be available to the consumer for replacement and the need to make this fixture user serviceable was unnecessary. In addition these fixtures were designed to meet UL standards and there are actually versions out there (sold under the Aqueon label) that are cUL approved. However the high cost of the UL approval was eventually deemed unncessary and the listing was not maintained. UL specifically does not approve of components being replaced by the consumer.
There is not a manufacturer in any industry who will tell the consumer it's ok to cut the wires and splice in a replacement component.
The vast majority of the fixtures last far longer than two years. I have 6 48" fixtures in my fish room going on 6 years. And many others even in this thread have them going much longer.
There actually is a patent on snap in easily accessible ballasts from the outside of the fixture. The factory that owned the patent used to make all the Coralife CF and halide fixtures. That feature is found in older Lunar Aqualights. However we no longer work with that factory (for reasons I can't get into) so we can't use that feature any longer. That's why you don't see a feature like that from anyone else either.
And while the low profile T5's have a mylar reflector (which works pretty well actually), versions produced after 2008 have secured lampholders, and all versions have endcaps that are screwed on. I have no idea what you mean by press fit housing.
I am sorry you are having problems with the fixture and if you contact Tech support they can probably help you out with some replacements. But knowing the technology and testing that went into the fixture and what is being used by our competitors I would have to disagree with your premise and statements that the fixture is low quality.
Everything comes down to pricing in the end. If you build the best fixture in the world but noone will buy it because there is an equivalent fixture that costs half as much that is "good enough" you will have failed. Every $1 in cost is $10 at retail.
Andy
Where a fixture was designed to be user servicable, the components are put in with quick disconnect connections like the older Coralife PC fixtures that Tony has were made with. To do this however the manufacturer needs to know that the fixture will never meet UL standards for approval. This is a non-issue with fixtures that are designed for marine aquaria since there isn't a fixture in the hobby that will meet UL standards for a marine aquarium (nothing will pass the spray test). The low profile T5's were made with a custom ballast in order to achieve the low profile. These ballasts would never be available to the consumer for replacement and the need to make this fixture user serviceable was unnecessary. In addition these fixtures were designed to meet UL standards and there are actually versions out there (sold under the Aqueon label) that are cUL approved. However the high cost of the UL approval was eventually deemed unncessary and the listing was not maintained. UL specifically does not approve of components being replaced by the consumer.
There is not a manufacturer in any industry who will tell the consumer it's ok to cut the wires and splice in a replacement component.
The vast majority of the fixtures last far longer than two years. I have 6 48" fixtures in my fish room going on 6 years. And many others even in this thread have them going much longer.
There actually is a patent on snap in easily accessible ballasts from the outside of the fixture. The factory that owned the patent used to make all the Coralife CF and halide fixtures. That feature is found in older Lunar Aqualights. However we no longer work with that factory (for reasons I can't get into) so we can't use that feature any longer. That's why you don't see a feature like that from anyone else either.
And while the low profile T5's have a mylar reflector (which works pretty well actually), versions produced after 2008 have secured lampholders, and all versions have endcaps that are screwed on. I have no idea what you mean by press fit housing.
I am sorry you are having problems with the fixture and if you contact Tech support they can probably help you out with some replacements. But knowing the technology and testing that went into the fixture and what is being used by our competitors I would have to disagree with your premise and statements that the fixture is low quality.
Everything comes down to pricing in the end. If you build the best fixture in the world but noone will buy it because there is an equivalent fixture that costs half as much that is "good enough" you will have failed. Every $1 in cost is $10 at retail.
Andy
AndyNarwhal
Members
We must have been typing at the same time. No problem. Sorry If I pushed back too hard too.
Part of R&D is failure analysis and I have looked at a lot of light fixtures. After I disassemble them I take the housings to the recycler. I get $.75 a lb for aluminum here in wisconsin. The lfs is next door to the recycler and I get blackworms with it.
That aluminum housing is recyclable.
Andy
Part of R&D is failure analysis and I have looked at a lot of light fixtures. After I disassemble them I take the housings to the recycler. I get $.75 a lb for aluminum here in wisconsin. The lfs is next door to the recycler and I get blackworms with it.
That aluminum housing is recyclable.
Andy
AndyNarwhal
Members
One last thought before I go.
As the industry stampedes toward LED, fluorescent fixtures are quickly becoming obsolete. To remain competitive they will need to become cheaper and cheaper in order to stay under the LED price point which will be exceedingly difficult. Aquarium fixtures that use high end ballasts will simply not be able to compete. The Biocubes are a little different because they are an all in one kit and the margins can be made up elsewhere but a stand alone light does not have that ability.
LED presents it's own challenge as most LED's have absolutely no user servicability as they consist of nothing but PC boards. LED's do last longer on average. But the key phrase is "on average". If you have an LED fixture with 100 LED's in it and there is a 1% failure rate on the LED chips that means that every LED fixture made is going to have one chip go bad on it. If it's a 0.1% then it's one in 10 fixtures. If the chips are in series (say 3 in a row which is most common) then when one chip goes bad it takes the other two with it.
Creating LED fixtures that are repairable like fluorescents is a big challenge to manufacturers today.
Next time you are in a lfs take a look at any LED fixtures they have operating and see how many individual chips are no longer working. You will be surprised at how many you see.
And I wouldn't be a good Central employee if I didn't recommend you look at the Aqueon modular LED fixtures. If you are looking for something long lasting that can give you the light you need these may fit the bill. They won't be as bright as the T5's but they are serviceable and you can customize the color you want to use as well by adding/changing tubes. And the energy cost is much lower than fluorescent.
Andy
As the industry stampedes toward LED, fluorescent fixtures are quickly becoming obsolete. To remain competitive they will need to become cheaper and cheaper in order to stay under the LED price point which will be exceedingly difficult. Aquarium fixtures that use high end ballasts will simply not be able to compete. The Biocubes are a little different because they are an all in one kit and the margins can be made up elsewhere but a stand alone light does not have that ability.
LED presents it's own challenge as most LED's have absolutely no user servicability as they consist of nothing but PC boards. LED's do last longer on average. But the key phrase is "on average". If you have an LED fixture with 100 LED's in it and there is a 1% failure rate on the LED chips that means that every LED fixture made is going to have one chip go bad on it. If it's a 0.1% then it's one in 10 fixtures. If the chips are in series (say 3 in a row which is most common) then when one chip goes bad it takes the other two with it.
Creating LED fixtures that are repairable like fluorescents is a big challenge to manufacturers today.
Next time you are in a lfs take a look at any LED fixtures they have operating and see how many individual chips are no longer working. You will be surprised at how many you see.
And I wouldn't be a good Central employee if I didn't recommend you look at the Aqueon modular LED fixtures. If you are looking for something long lasting that can give you the light you need these may fit the bill. They won't be as bright as the T5's but they are serviceable and you can customize the color you want to use as well by adding/changing tubes. And the energy cost is much lower than fluorescent.
Andy
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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Good discussion - am learning some things
My main point was that after decades of reparable fixtures (and air pumps and filters), these are not. Well and good to decide that user serviceability is "unnecessary" (as it appears the UL designation is) until you're a user with blown units piling up. I bought mine in 2010, so whatever changes were made appeared to have taken a while to catch up to retail inventory as the endcaps within mine are very loose within the housing. "Press-fit" means that parts (in this case that comprise the housing) are pressed together so that they cannot be separated (or opened) in any manner that does not completely and effectively forever destroy the unit.
I know all about recycling but as I'm not dealing in commercial volumes of aluminum it's not much a of a salve, more so as I generally buy things because I look forward to using them for a very long time rather than awaiting the day when I can reintegrate them piecemeal into the manufacturing stream.
Am glad to hear that you imagine the LED price point to be approaching that of fluorescents - no evidence that I can see of this as yet since I still have to pay at least twice as much for an LED system as a T5, but it's good to hear that LEDs are likely to get cheaper especially since the energy/environmental savings are so dramatic.
I do have to take issue with the inference that a 10 to 1 ratio or 1000% mark-up between manufacture and retail is universal. Although that may doubtless represent a guarantee of corporate profitability, and while I have little trouble believing that Coralife pays a mere $4 to whomever is manufacturing your 24" T5 strip lights in China), I dare say that there are many many products available to consumers made by many manufacturers that operate under considerably tighter constraints, and that once an assembly and design process are in place, there's no reason for increases in component cost to automatically translate into that degree of retail cost increase - it it did we'd all still be driving Model Ts.
If everything indeed came down to pricing as you say, I don't think you would have labored so long and hard at creating what you feel is a quality product or spend nearly as much time defending it. Certainly quality is a significant part of any equation for a company to endure. I probably got hooked into a bad batch of ballasts for as we all know or should, "quality control" is a perennial issue with outsourcing, and especially in China.
And I wouldn't be a good CCA member if I didn't recommend the Deep Blue T5 units - about 10% more expensive than comparably sized CLs, but well put together, much stouter, user accessible, and they come with moonlights which for some mysterious reason is a feature that most manufacturers reserve exclusively for marine fixtures.
I will however look into modular LED units but am guessing that they're still at least 3-4 times the cost of a DB T5 - great idea though especially if the illumination can be increased, the whole concept of modular being one that describes most veteran finatics with our collection of tanks like snowflakes no two alike.
My main point was that after decades of reparable fixtures (and air pumps and filters), these are not. Well and good to decide that user serviceability is "unnecessary" (as it appears the UL designation is) until you're a user with blown units piling up. I bought mine in 2010, so whatever changes were made appeared to have taken a while to catch up to retail inventory as the endcaps within mine are very loose within the housing. "Press-fit" means that parts (in this case that comprise the housing) are pressed together so that they cannot be separated (or opened) in any manner that does not completely and effectively forever destroy the unit.
I know all about recycling but as I'm not dealing in commercial volumes of aluminum it's not much a of a salve, more so as I generally buy things because I look forward to using them for a very long time rather than awaiting the day when I can reintegrate them piecemeal into the manufacturing stream.
Am glad to hear that you imagine the LED price point to be approaching that of fluorescents - no evidence that I can see of this as yet since I still have to pay at least twice as much for an LED system as a T5, but it's good to hear that LEDs are likely to get cheaper especially since the energy/environmental savings are so dramatic.
I do have to take issue with the inference that a 10 to 1 ratio or 1000% mark-up between manufacture and retail is universal. Although that may doubtless represent a guarantee of corporate profitability, and while I have little trouble believing that Coralife pays a mere $4 to whomever is manufacturing your 24" T5 strip lights in China), I dare say that there are many many products available to consumers made by many manufacturers that operate under considerably tighter constraints, and that once an assembly and design process are in place, there's no reason for increases in component cost to automatically translate into that degree of retail cost increase - it it did we'd all still be driving Model Ts.
If everything indeed came down to pricing as you say, I don't think you would have labored so long and hard at creating what you feel is a quality product or spend nearly as much time defending it. Certainly quality is a significant part of any equation for a company to endure. I probably got hooked into a bad batch of ballasts for as we all know or should, "quality control" is a perennial issue with outsourcing, and especially in China.
And I wouldn't be a good CCA member if I didn't recommend the Deep Blue T5 units - about 10% more expensive than comparably sized CLs, but well put together, much stouter, user accessible, and they come with moonlights which for some mysterious reason is a feature that most manufacturers reserve exclusively for marine fixtures.
I will however look into modular LED units but am guessing that they're still at least 3-4 times the cost of a DB T5 - great idea though especially if the illumination can be increased, the whole concept of modular being one that describes most veteran finatics with our collection of tanks like snowflakes no two alike.
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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Nope
I think after causing such a ruckus I'm duty bound to ship them back to the company and see if and how they respond.
I think after causing such a ruckus I'm duty bound to ship them back to the company and see if and how they respond.
AndyNarwhal
Members
Sam,
You should contact Coralife Customer service first before just shipping them back. 1-888 255-4527 M-F 7am-4pm CST.
It's been a pleasure debating you but I am going to have to let it go now before things get out of hand.
Andy
You should contact Coralife Customer service first before just shipping them back. 1-888 255-4527 M-F 7am-4pm CST.
It's been a pleasure debating you but I am going to have to let it go now before things get out of hand.
Andy
Tony
Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Thanks for all your input, Andy.
Anyone looking for any more info, please send him a PM.
Thread closed.
Anyone looking for any more info, please send him a PM.
Thread closed.
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