150 gal haps setup

[STATMATT]

I'll post pictures soon, but I've got my second 150 up and running. This one is 4ft x 2ft x thirtysomething inches and with the open column of water, I wanted to make this a Haps tank. I have my short list of species and was wondering if anyone had any fry or juvies from the following.
-Primary list of species
*Aristochromis christyi 30cm
*Buccochromis atriaeniatus 28cm
*Champsochromis spilorhynchus 30cm
*Dimidochromis kiwinge 30cm
*Exochochromis anagenys 20cm
*Fossorochromis rostratus 24.4cm
*Mylochromis lateristriga 20.7cm
*Placidochromis milomo 18.7cm
*Taeniochromis holotaenia 22cm
*Taeniolethrinops praeorbitalis 30cm
*Tyrannochromis maculiceps 29.5cm

-Alternate List of species
Buccochromis spectabilis 25.6cm
Champsochromis caeruleus 32.2cm
Cheilochromis euchilus 35cm
Chilotilapia rhoadesi 22.5cm
Pallidochromis tokolosh 28cm
Tyrannochromis macrostoma 30cm

So I used malaiwcichlids.com/fishbase.org and google images to choose speices based on size and color. I didn't want to choose a Hap that would easily eat another full grown hap.

A few questions that I have to the hap owners out there.
1) Did you select species and then try to find them for your tank?
2) Did you order whatever the market (online / local) had available when you set up your tank?
3) Did you order fry/juvies or adults for the species you wanted or did you just take what was available?
4) I think ultimately I want a 1M/3F ratio, but I'm thinking of going with 6 juvie/fry, did you have a strategy on how to cull excess males from your group?
5) Being that the tank is larger and the fish are larger, how did you determine how many your tank could successfully hold? Did you start out with more than your tank would be able to support and then give/sell the excess as they grew?
6) Aquiring species, did you slowly aquire species say two from this dealer, two from this breeder and so on until you had what you wanted?

any help as to how to think about filling this tank would be appreciated.
I'll post a picture of the tank as it stands empty now. It has two cycled Rena Fillstar XP3's on it and I'm feeding it ammonia to maintain its fishless state in the nitrogen cycle. Heating will be done with a 500W titanium heater on a controller. Lighting is currently one 48in blue actinic.

Thanks STATMATT

 

[Tony]

Hey Matt,

Between this and the mbuna setup, you aren't messing around. Good man.

First of all, how many groups are you thinking of including? For that tank size, I would look to do max three groups of the bigger fish and perhaps 4-5 if you're interested in doing mid-sized fish.

Honestly in a 4' tank, there are some of those fish that I wouldn't keep. As adults, fish that are either too big, aggressive or both from the list include: Aristochromis, Fossochromis, Tyranochromis, Champsochromis and Taniolethrinops. The sizes listed above are how big they get in the wild, scrapping for food and constantly burning calories. In properly sized aquariums, they can get much larger. Male Fossochromis for instance can get to be 16"+. With taniolethrinops getting even larger than that. A quad of any of these fish should be splitting a 6' 125 or maybe 3 groups in a 180.

If you went with smaller haps, you would probably have less headaches in the end. Shoot for fish that to a max male size of 8". I know this rules out a lot of fish, but even less aggressive ones (larger Protomelas) will not be happy in a 4' in a breeding group. These fish swim extremely fast and will chase the females relentlessly when in the mood.

Some cool suggestions for fish that stay a bit smaller (and are generally available):

-Protomelas (taniolatus - red empress or fire blue, fenestratus, Tanzanian spilonotus, marginatus)
-Placidochromis (any blue type, milomo may be pushing it, but grow pretty slowly)
-Any Otopharynx
-Cyrtocara moori
-Peacocks (jacobfreibergi are the most "sturdy" in my experience)
-Mylochromis (most stay a reasonable size, but can be tough to find)
-Copadichromis (pretty much any one, maybe even borleyi)

Anyway, don't mean to throw a wrench into the works. You could honestly start out with any of the fish you listed in your post, but eventually, most will need a 6' tank.

Too late to swap the mbuna setup for this one? I know it would involve moving many rocks, but would definitely increase the variety of fish you can keep and be preferable in the long run.

 

[Tony]

In terms of availability:

-Primary list of species
*Aristochromis christyi 30cm - Pretty common
*Buccochromis atriaeniatus 28cm - Never seen on any list
*Champsochromis spilorhynchus 30cm - Very rare
*Dimidochromis kiwinge 30cm - Very rare
*Exochochromis anagenys 20cm - Uncommon
*Fossorochromis rostratus 24.4cm - Fairly common
*Mylochromis lateristriga 20.7cm - Only seen once
*Placidochromis milomo 18.7cm - Fairly common
*Taeniochromis holotaenia 22cm - Very rare
*Taeniolethrinops praeorbitalis 30cm - Never seen before
*Tyrannochromis maculiceps 29.5cm - variant of Nigriventor, fairly rare

-Alternate List of species
Buccochromis spectabilis 25.6cm - Only seen once
Champsochromis caeruleus 32.2cm - Uncommon
Cheilochromis euchilus 35cm - Very rare
Chilotilapia rhoadesi 22.5cm - Uncommon
Pallidochromis tokolosh 28cm - God bless you.
Tyrannochromis macrostoma 30cm - variant of Nigriventor

 

[Tony]

Too late to swap the mbuna setup for this one? I know it would involve moving many rocks, but would definitely increase the variety of fish you can keep and be preferable in the long run.

Never mind. For some reason, thought the mbuna setup was a 6' long 150.

 

[STATMATT]

Tony I'm still thiking about what you had to say, I really don't want to keep species that are very common, so if it takes me time, then that's OK, what I'm floating now is keeping a species only or only 2 species tank. I think I might enjoy that more than lots of different fish. bu anyway here is a picture of the empty tank.

 

[Tony]

Tank looks good, Matt.

Check out the genus Stigmatochromis. They're predator haps that stay small (7"-8"), really cool looking and very uncommon. I have a group of Stigmatochromis sp. "Spirostichtus type" that I absolutely love. Other than the occasional wild-caught single male popping up here and there, I don't know anyone else breeding them locally. There are 4-5 different species in the genus I believe, all with different coloration.

Another genus to check out is Mylochromis. Very cool fish that are not too aggressive that no one has. M. ericnotaenia is a gorgeous fish.

 

[STATMATT]

I'm leaning more towards the Mylochromis' with the lateral stripe. But the Stigmatochromis spilostichus and modestus look good too. So would your recomendation be to look for someone in the club that has them or buy from an international dealer such as. http://www.j-mexoticcichlids.com I've not done business with him, but his about me section sounds like someone I'd prefer to work with. He also seems to have a variety of the more rare species as well. If anyone's done business with him, let me know what you thought.

also here is a pic of the underside of the tank.

Its messy under there, but I got the Ranco Temperature Controller pluged into two 300W heaters, it put the temperature into range within 24 hours and was easy to use.
Top plug goes to my water hardness meter sitting on top of my tank.
Next plug goes to the temperature controller with a heater plugged into each side
Next two are to rena Filstar XP3s.
Next is to the light timer and light
Next is to the Maxi-Jet 1200 Powerhead with the sureflow upgrade kit and magnetic mounting bracket

Inside the tank on the left you can see my homade wier connected to one of the XP3s so this pulls water off the surface. The other has the intake pipe tunneled down an undergravel filter tube pulling water from the subsurface. I don't know if I like the substrate yet, I may end up removing it and going with sand, but for now it is good.
And last but not least is a floating thermometer that matches the temperature controller exactly.

Anything else any of the club members would do or not do with this tank? I'm open to suggestion.

 

[Tony]

The hardware on your setup is pretty hardcore. I also have two Rena XP3s and an AC 110 on my 6' long 150. Can you get any closer pictures of the surface skimmer you built?

I don't think you're going to be able to fins any local breeders of Mylochromis or Stigmatochromis. Check out Dave's Rare Fish. He often has some of the more oddball Malawi stuff.

 

[STATMATT]

I bulit a larger one, but Im having problems getting it under the lid and have to think of an alternative solution.

Of you rotate this pic counterclockwise 90 degrees you'd be looking at the part that goes into the tank. The Ball Valve is like the one in the upper right hand side of the picture and then it is a threaded to 5/8 in hose barb to connect to the XP3. I'm working on some better ideas to get it to skim more surface water. And the ability to put the heater into the bubble trap is a nice feature.
It is adaptable to put into a sump. If the water goes too low it stops before the tank drains, when the pump kicks back on it automatically starts working again.

 

[aprildawn]

I got my mylochromis ericotaenia from Serious cichlids as well as placidochromis johnstoni & placidochromis phenochilus. very nice fish.

 

[STATMATT]

Thanks, I added the website to my watchlist, but currently they don't have what I'm looking for. I'm setting up a mbuna tank as well and if I set up an order it will be a big one. Or there is always the ACA event and ECC auctions comming up.

 

[STATMATT]

This is what I'm stuck on right now...
Buccochromis atritaeniatus - $35
Champsochromis spilorhynchus - $30 (really like)
Dimidiochromis kiwinge -$15
Exochochromis anagenys yellow - $18
Lichnochromis acuticeps - $18 (really like)
Mylochromis sp. Mchuse - $15
Taenichromis holotaenia - $15 (really like)
from...
http://www.j-mexoticcichlids.com

Anyone keeping this or have any ideas, Are these the types of fish I could find at the ECC auction or at the ACA Convention?

Thanks for your input.
STATMATT

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

This is what I'm stuck on right now...
Buccochromis atritaeniatus - $35
Champsochromis spilorhynchus - $30 (really like)
Dimidiochromis kiwinge -$15
Exochochromis anagenys yellow - $18
Lichnochromis acuticeps - $18 (really like)
Mylochromis sp. Mchuse - $15
Taenichromis holotaenia - $15 (really like)
from...
http://www.j-mexoticcichlids.com

Anyone keeping this or have any ideas, Are these the types of fish I could find at the ECC auction or at the ACA Convention?

Thanks for your input.
STATMATT

I've been to the past 3 ECC auctions and don't remember seeing any of these. There is always a huge variety of nice fish, but the fish on your list aren't very common. For instance champochromis caeruleus has been at most auctions, but not champsochromis spilorhyncus. Also dimidochromis compressiceps shows up, but not generally dimidochromis kiwinge.

There is a chance they could show up because the donations and selection change every time, but its hit or miss. You may have more luck at ACA, but again its not guaranteed. The vendor you're referencing does have quality stock.

 

[Tony]

Hey Matt,

Those are some great fish and J&M does get some good stock. Watch out for conspecifics. A few of the guys you listed are elongated haps with a blue head, reddish body and a solid horizontal melanin pattern. If you're looking to do a couple of groups or all males, you may have some aggression issues or crossbreeding (in the case of groups).

I've run into this same issue with my big tank... there's lots of blue faced haps with slightly different-shapes of reddish bodies out there.

 

[Cartel]

There were a couple bags of auciteps at the ecc auction last time other then that just the more common ones of the toe you listed. Your best bet is going to be watching aquabid and the other oddball Malawi sites. Look at Erik dykes list too.

 

[STATMATT]

Cartel,
I've been watching aquabid and the Erik's lists as well. I'm fairly set on doing a single order though.

Tony,
The aggression thing is something I've thought a lot about. I've read a lot of forums (not just this one) and The species of interest there isn't a whole lot of information about. Hybrids are a concern. One way to prevent that is as the juvies reach maturity is to plan on another future tank. Do one for the girls and one for the guys, when Things look good I can pull my best looking guy for the job.

I'm thinking the B. atritaeniatus as being my 'token' rare species, there is very little online about these as their Genus counterparts steal the stage.
I'll scratch D. kiwinge from my list for now(its the largest fish on the list) and then C. spilorhynchus(because of costs). The E. anagenys will work as far as a totally different color pattern and missing the lateral line. The L. acuticeps can be put in the mbuna tank if things get out of hand (I'm scratching the M. Mchuse b/c I like the L. acuticeps better plus some websites have them pegged as the same fish). and then the T. holotaenia I'm interested in. so really my concern would be between the Bucco... and the Tanie...

My question is if I get these guys at 2-3 inches. How long do I have until aggression has to be delt with? The quick standby would be a 300 gallon rubbermaid tub. I've handled aggression issues in the past this way. In my experience usually when you put the aggressor in a time out for a month or so, they arn't able to re-establish themselves so well when being returned especially with the rock work reorganized.

How aggresive are we talking about? Am I going to come home from work one day to murdered fish, or will there be a few at the top edge of the tank swimming crooked to keep away from the aggressor?

Also I've not used this board/club to try and share shipping costs. is anyone interested in splitting an order to J&M with me / or should I post this on the Marketplace board?

 

[Tony]

Tony,
The aggression thing is something I've thought a lot about. I've read a lot of forums (not just this one) and The species of interest there isn't a whole lot of information about. Hybrids are a concern. One way to prevent that is as the juvies reach maturity is to plan on another future tank. Do one for the girls and one for the guys, when Things look good I can pull my best looking guy for the job.

I'm thinking the B. atritaeniatus as being my 'token' rare species, there is very little online about these as their Genus counterparts steal the stage.
I'll scratch D. kiwinge from my list for now(its the largest fish on the list) and then C. spilorhynchus(because of costs). The E. anagenys will work as far as a totally different color pattern and missing the lateral line. The L. acuticeps can be put in the mbuna tank if things get out of hand (I'm scratching the M. Mchuse b/c I like the L. acuticeps better plus some websites have them pegged as the same fish). and then the T. holotaenia I'm interested in. so really my concern would be between the Bucco... and the Tanie...

My question is if I get these guys at 2-3 inches. How long do I have until aggression has to be delt with? The quick standby would be a 300 gallon rubbermaid tub. I've handled aggression issues in the past this way. In my experience usually when you put the aggressor in a time out for a month or so, they arn't able to re-establish themselves so well when being returned especially with the rock work reorganized.

How aggresive are we talking about? Am I going to come home from work one day to murdered fish, or will there be a few at the top edge of the tank swimming crooked to keep away from the aggressor?

Also I've not used this board/club to try and share shipping costs. is anyone interested in splitting an order to J&M with me / or should I post this on the Marketplace board?

How many species total are you looking to keep? 4 right? I like the idea of having two tanks, but personally if I was going to keep two tanks, they'd just have groups (males and females) in each with different enough patterns/colors to not have to worry about crossbreeding. From my experience, I've become a firm believer that fish generally do not hybridize if the male is given a proper harem of the correct species (within reason of course).

Plus I think you may run into aggression issues with keeping multiple males of the same species in the same tank, even without females.

Totally with you on the Exochromis. They're awesome and don't get massive. Good choice for your tank.

Have you thought about Bucco. spectabilis? Awesome, uncommon Bucco with totally different colors from the other fish you are considering. Just be weary of any group of Buccos in a 4' tank long term. The get big (16"-18") and rowdy and will need a 6' tank for sure as adults.

Have you considered any Protomelas? They're different enough in body shape and color patterns that you'd not have to worry about crossbreeding (and even the biggest ones max out around 12"... most closer to 8").

For the 150, maybe start out with 4 groups:

-Exochromis
-Bucco (either one - until they outgrow the tank)
-L. acuticeps
-T. holotaenia or a Protomelas (Tanz spilonotus, Fenestratus, Mbenji thick lip or maybe even Placidochromis johnstoni or milomo)

Sorry, I know you've done the research and don't mean to be playing Debby-downer. I just still think that B. atritaeniatus, L. acuticeps and T. holotaenia are a little too close. But of these fish, I've only ever kept Lichnochromis and other Buccos, so I can't say for sure. If not for aggression reasons, maybe for aesthetics... you're gonna be watching a lot of blue and red male haps.

In terms of aggression, these fish will get rough when they mature, but not like the big nasties from the new world. You will see it coming typically. Fish hide more and more and fins get tattered. You generally have a chance to pull them. Plus, you aren't considering any of the fish that I consider truly nasty haps (Aristochromis, Nimbochromis, Tyrannochromis) or mbuna (crabro, Melanochromis).

In a tank that size, 20-25 2"-3" fish should be good for a while. You will see aggression coming out (aggression that cannot be escaped in a 4' tank) when the fish start to hit the 6" mark. You're probably looking at 6 months to get that growth (again, haven't kept all of those species, but similar).

For a group order, probably going to pass on this one (though I like their stocklist). My tanks are overcrowded right now and also trying to save money (and tank space) for the ECC auction, group Dave's Fish order and ACA in the next couple of months.

Hope this helped.

 

[STATMATT]

Well things are comming together. I'm moving away from my wishlist and going with what is available.

I've been snatching what I like from others. I picked up Iamzrad's setup
http://www.capitalcichlids.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9553
Hence the 'all sold' that was fast message.

Last night I went to buy some lace rock off craigslist and also picked up
Nimbochromis Livingstoni M/F pair for $20 and
Melanochromis auratus M/F pair for $20 for my mbuna setup.

The lace rock I picked up last night was incredible.
So I'm getting everything ready for this weekend. moved a cycled filter over and added some rocks from an existing tank (29 Tang) for additional BB to handle the additional bioload.

I placed the auratus in the haps tank since I didn't have the water heated on the mbuna tank. I'll add the heater on Wednesday evening. And ready for the kicker!

In the next month or so I'll have to move both tanks for some basement renovations!!! But all is well, I'll probably switch all the rocks from the mbuna tank over to the haps tank and give the haps the swimming space of the six foot tank. I'll switch the granite over to the 4 foot 150 and the lace rock over to the 6 foot tank.

I also want to set up an electrical panel to keep all my fish stuff on one board, but we'll see how that goes. I'd like to have it wired to its own electical circuit when they do the remodeling.

any thoughts...

 

[Tony]

any thoughts...

Good luck.

 

[iamzrad]

Hey Matt, I'd be careful with lace rock in the big hap tank. Large fish swimming fast could result in some nasty damage!