Something got past QT, HITH and possibly gill flukes

[captmicha]

So I agreed to adopt some fish lately (one of the larger Cory species and a Serpae tetra). Did my two week QT and added them to my fish room. I didn't see anything the matter with them and don't usually treat fish unless I do.

Sucks to be me bc something got past the QT and is sickening my fish across my tanks. Might have been a bucket for sponge cleaning or the hose or something that spread it. I'm pretty absent minded, so I'm not surprised it's a whole fish room problem now.

Anyways, I'm seeing HITH on several of my cichlids. I've never had it before so it took me a while to figure this out.

I'm also seeing (across different tanks):
-bloating without dropsy in some of my Serpae Tetra.
-A clear looking spot on the abdomen of a few Serpae and one of my pygmy Corys (it died).
-One of my cichlids, a Guianacara stergoisi (New World) is breathing rapidly, is dark and aneroxic. I had another one doing that that died.
-One of my cichlids (Paralochromis) lost her gill plate, but it healed and is almost as good as new.
-My Rainbow Cichlids have patches of missing scales and one has a white swollen spot on the lip that won't heal.

Following diagnostic charts, I'm guessing what set it off was gill flukes that's bringing every body's immune systems down.

I've lost two fish to this.

My parameters are good, actually better than usual bc I've been doing more changes recently.

The exception was when the Guianacara died and sat in there for a day, but I've cleared it up with water changes a few days in a room and ammonia detox.

I oversize my tank size and filtration, and understock inhabitants, so I don't tend to have too many water quality issues, even when I don't do them frequently. Most are planted.

I've had my water source tested also. It's not an issue for the most part. About 7ppm nitrates, a little bit of copper and lead. Under 1ppm and we have a heavy metal filter running now.

So I've never had all these health issues before and they're taking a long time to respond to the meds. I'm using Metro and Prazi. It's been about 5 days now.

Shouldn't I start to see some improvement already?

And how the heck do I even confirm gill flukes? I can't see anything on the gills and don't have a microscope... Not yet at least (is something I'm going to be getting).

I've been trying to research this (I've never had HITH OR gill flukes to my knowledge before), but I can't really tell from the pictures of gill fluke infections any clear visual evidence of them.

I'm not even seeing universally pale or red gills. And the only fish with puffed gills is the Guianacara that died and the one still alive that's rapid breathing. I upped the air in that tank a lot to help.

I have one Guianacara besides him left in that tank, and neither that fish or any of the other fish in there (Corydoras) are having breathing problems.

I'm not really seeing improvements. Yet. I don't know if I'm being anxious or if something's off about this taking so long.

 

[Becca]

API general cure should treat both gill flukes and hex. Invest in a big jar of it. HITH is a real b*tch and not an easy fix, but some fish can recover.

 

[captmicha]

API general cure should treat both gill flukes and hex. Invest in a big jar of it. HITH is a real b*tch and not an easy fix, but some fish can recover.

Thanks, I'm treating with the equivalent. Ill get that when I run out.

I'm never not treating a new fish again. This really sucks.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Sorry to hear but sounds like you're doing the right thing. Sometimes things can take longer to manifest, even with longer QT periods it can still happen to experienced people. At least you have good confirming advice from Becca and maybe this will help someone else on the fence about QT practices.

 

[captmicha]

I'd like to run this by people to check out my inclinations. I'm very open to constructive criticism!

So, I'm seeing a lot of secondary infections. Bloat (without dropsy or weird poop), fin and tail rot, cotton mouth (or one of the many similar looking things), clear patches, etc. Basically it's run amok. Different and shared things across different tanks.

In addition to keeping careful tabs on the water quality, I've treated with Metro and Prazi and Nitrofuracin Green. This means that I've treated for everything but Aerobic Gram-Negative bacteria now (Metro treats anaerobic gram-negative).

So my inclination now is to start a course of Kanamycin. And finish up the Metro and Prazi.

The thing that complicates things is water changes. If I need to do them for water quality, I'll need to start a new course in order to finish out the 5-7 day recommendation for the Prazi and Nitro-green.

Should I instead settle for Prime (or similar, I also have Fritz Complete) right now instead of doing water changes? And how often to apply it? I've never relied on them before for water quality. I'm also worried about it contradicting meds. I'm not a chemist or doctor, but feel like I need to be right now! I usually ask Nat Fish Pharm when their charts aren't enough, but their numbers are disconnected. Any idea what happened to them or a similar consulting program?

To be honest, I'm going through a LOT of meds (most of my tanks are 55 gallons) and I'm hoping to not run out. Especially with shipping being crazy still.

 

[captmicha]

I'd like to run this by people to check out my inclinations. I'm very open to constructive criticism!

So, I'm seeing a lot of secondary infections. Bloat (without dropsy or weird poop), fin and tail rot, cotton mouth (or one of the many similar looking things), clear patches, etc. Basically it's run amok. Different and shared things across different tanks.

In addition to keeping careful tabs on the water quality, I've treated with Metro and Prazi and Nitrofuracin Green. This means that I've treated for everything but Aerobic Gram-Negative bacteria now (Metro treats anaerobic gram-negative).

So my inclination now is to start a course of Kanamycin. And finish up the Metro and Prazi.

The thing that complicates things is water changes. If I need to do them for water quality, I'll need to start a new course in order to finish out the 5-7 day recommendation for the Prazi and Nitro-green.

Should I instead settle for Prime (or similar, I also have Fritz Complete) right now instead of doing water changes? And how often to apply it? I've never relied on them before for water quality. I'm also worried about it contradicting meds. I'm not a chemist or doctor, but feel like I need to be right now! I usually ask Nat Fish Pharm when their charts aren't enough, but their numbers are disconnected. Any idea what happened to them or a similar consulting program?

To be honest, I'm going through a LOT of meds (most of my tanks are 55 gallons) and I'm hoping to not run out. Especially with shipping being crazy still.

Shit. Someone suggested it's Mycobacterium marinum which is incurable and a death sentence...

 

[Becca]

I think protozoan infection is more likely. Google Barbie Florentino and Proform-c. chriscoli and I recently discussed this. I've had similar weirdness occur without the introduction of new fish in long established tanks.

 

[captmicha]

I think protozoan infection is more likely. Google Barbie Florentino and Proform-c. chriscoli and I recently discussed this. I've had similar weirdness occur without the introduction of new fish in long established tanks.

God, I hope you're right. I was worrying I'd have to cull and sanitize.

Thank you!! Found it on PVAS and will give it a try. Is this not something that the Nitrofuracin Green would have helped? (It's National Fish Pharm's formula.)

Nitrofurazone, Sulfathiazole Sodium, Methylene Blue and sodium chloride.

Btw, have you ever used a diagnostics lab? I'd like to send a fish out to confirm.

 

[Becca]

God, I hope you're right. I was worrying I'd have to cull and sanitize.

Thank you!! Found it on PVAS and will give it a try. Is this not something that the Nitrofuracin Green would have helped? (It's National Fish Pharm's formula.)

Nitrofurazone, Sulfathiazole Sodium, Methylene Blue and sodium chloride.

Btw, have you ever used a diagnostics lab? I'd like to send a fish out to confirm.

I have not ever used a diagnostics lab. If you find one to mail to, I'd love to hear about it. I'd hesitate to bounce fish from one treatment to another too quickly as it could cause organ failure or other damage.

 

[Frank Cowherd]

PVAS had a speaker a couple years ago who was a local veterinarian and talked about diseases. She also would do diagnosis for $65 or $75 as I remember. You might look through the PVAS forum and be able to find her contact information.

 

[Wet Sleeves]

I think protozoan infection is more likely. Google Barbie Florentino and Proform-c. chriscoli and I recently discussed this. I've had similar weirdness occur without the introduction of new fish in long established tanks.

I had an outbreak of something REAL weird a couple years ago. It was not a pleasant experience. If I see several dead fish that were otherwise perfectly fine the day or night before, I hit the tank with Proform-C

 

[Becca]

I had an outbreak of something REAL weird a couple years ago. It was not a pleasant experience. If I see several dead fish that were otherwise perfectly fine the day or night before, I hit the tank with Proform-C

Yeah. We just picked up a gallon because of similar weirdness in long-running tanks. I worry about correctly calculating the dose, of course, since the tanks are not bare.

 

[captmicha]

Thanks guys. Things seem to be improving. Also I think some of what I was seeing was battle wounds from spawning. Two of my species thought a (fish) pandemic was the perfect time. And now a third species is doing it.

My Serpae are still bloated and that one G. stergoisi is still aneroxic and breathing rapidly, but better today.

I've been force feeding him, bc why not? Until his gills recover. Hopefully.

I still want to send out a dead fish to try to learn something. My friend is a fish vet, but it's nice to have so many options.

I'm REALLY glad for this group. I tried some other places and people kept insisting I need

PVAS had a speaker a couple years ago who was a local veterinarian and talked about diseases. She also would do diagnosis for $65 or $75 as I remember. You might look through the PVAS forum and be able to find her contact information.

Thanks! That's a good price.

I have a friend who's a fish vet, but it's good to have options.

No more deaths. Everyone seems to be improving but the Serpae tetras are still bloated and the one Guianacara is still anorexic and breathing heavy.

I think some of the symptoms I was seeing was from spawning bc during all this, my Guianacara stergoisi pair (not with my grow fry from them) spawned and do did my Coptodon.

I've been force feeding my sick G. stergoisi bc why not? I'm hoping he recovers.

I can't see the rest of my post, my phone is weird. Anyways I'm really thankful for this group and it's members. I asked a few other places and got water explained to me...

I know that's not it for several reasons.

I really need to get a compound and stereoscopic microscope for the future. I don't like not knowing what's what when it gets weird like this.

 

[Becca]

You know a fish vet? Do tell.

I was looking for one a while back but the wait for an appointment was so long that it wasn't going to help.

 

[captmicha]

You know a fish vet? Do tell.

I was looking for one a while back but the wait for an appointment was so long that it wasn't going to help.

Yeah, but she's not local. Dr. Jena Questen in CO.

 

[captmicha]

Meds finally came and am on day three tonight. I'm using Microbe Lift Broad Spectrum bc it's the same.

No changes unfortunately. At least not yet.