Rotkeil (red Shoulder) Severum Part 2

[marge618]

The rotkeil have taken control of their tank. Even the water changes are challenged by them. They grab hold of the siphon and won't let go! It's like dealing with 2 entirely different fish. What a change... They come up to the front of the tank to peer at me and check out what is going on. The dithers (black skirt tetra) flee when this pair start swooshing through the tank.

I've been reading about adding oak leaves to a rotkeil tank. Do you think that's a good idea?

 

[George]

It could be, but from the sound of things, you better check with them first.


George

 

[marge618]

It could be, but from the sound of things, you better check with them first.


George[/b]

Yes George, the rotkeils have 'taken over'. Maybe I could add just 2-3 leaves for them to consider.


Soooo... Have any of you added oak leaves to any of your tanks? Is this just an odd decorating idea or does it really help with tank 'health'? A little input here would be most appreciated.

 

[ltrepeter2000]

I used it in a few tanks when I had more dwarf cichlids. They used it to breed in as I feel it made them feel more secure.

 

[Sonny Disposition]

The idea behind adding oak leaves to a tank is to make the water more acidic. It's possible that some of the tannin compounds in the oak leaves will bind to some of the dissolved salts in the water, and make the water a little softer.

Neither one of these worked with my tanks when I tried it. The water company put some kind of buffer in my tap that made it next to impossible to lower the pH below 7.5.

Oak leaves will also turn your water tan colored, like parts of the Amazon (or the Eastern Shore).

I used it in a few tanks when I had more dwarf cichlids. They used it to breed in as I feel it made them feel more secure.[/b]

 

[Pat Kelly]

I used Oak leaves some when I was trying to breed some corys.
Make sure you pick them off the tree. Not the ground. Less comtamination.

 

[Sonny Disposition]

The water from my tap is useless for soft water fish, no matter how many oak leaves I put in it. Now I have a 50 gallon cattle trough outside the downspout of the rain gutter.

I store it in buckets, let the sediment settle out of it, then siphon the rainwater off the top. Cories love it and breed in it. I imagine most Amazon species would.

I used Oak leaves some when I was trying to breed some corys.
Make sure you pick them off the tree. Not the ground. Less comtamination.[/b]

 

[marge618]

The water from my tap is useless for soft water fish, no matter how many oak leaves I put in it. Now I have a 50 gallon cattle trough outside the downspout of the rain gutter.

I store it in buckets, let the sediment settle out of it, then siphon the rainwater off the top. Cories love it and breed in it. I imagine most Amazon species would.


<div class='quotemain'>I used Oak leaves some when I was trying to breed some corys.
Make sure you pick them off the tree. Not the ground. Less comtamination.[/b]

[/b][/quote]

Sonny: My deck is pretty small to give it a 50 g drum. It would seem that the sediment from old roofing tile could be bad for fish...

Pat: On cichlid-forum Blair, the fellow who writes about oak leaves says.... only get leaves that have already fallen as they have less tanin. Also, you have to boil them...which would tank care of your concern about contamination.
Later,
Marge

 

[Sonny Disposition]

Yeah, you would think that rain water running off roofing tiles might pick up contaminants, but if that's happening, it's never affected my fish. I've spawned corydoras paleatus, albino aeneus, laser green aneus, sterbai, and Brochis splendens in rain water from my 15 year old roof, and it's never seemed to bother them. Also a really fussy, fragile native, Enneacanthus chaetodon. I tried it on the discus, and it didn't seem to bother them either (although I gave it up after awhile, as it didn't seem to be making any difference, so I went back to tap.)

With oak leaves, I just picked them up from my backyard, rinsed them a little, then threw them in the tank. Again, it didn't seem to bother the chaetodon, but I've never tried them with any other species.

The other trick to soften water is to use peat moss (not peat humus.) I'm told the trick is to boil it before adding it to a filter bag. I tried it once, years ago, but never found any difference.

If you've got really difficult tap water to work with (like I do) and can't set up some sort of rainwater collection barrel or bucket, then you might want to invest in an RO system.


Sonny: My deck is pretty small to give it a 50 g drum. It would seem that the sediment from old roofing tile could be bad for fish...

Pat: On cichlid-forum Blair, the fellow who writes about oak leaves says.... only get leaves that have already fallen as they have less tanin. Also, you have to boil them...which would tank care of your concern about contamination.
Later,
Marge
[/quote]

 

[marge618]

Yeah, you would think that rain water running off roofing tiles might pick up contaminants, but if that's happening, it's never affected my fish. I've spawned corydoras paleatus, albino aeneus, laser green aneus, sterbai, and Brochis splendens in rain water from my 15 year old roof, and it's never seemed to bother them. Also a really fussy, fragile native, Enneacanthus chaetodon. I tried it on the discus, and it didn't seem to bother them either (although I gave it up after awhile, as it didn't seem to be making any difference, so I went back to tap.)

With oak leaves, I just picked them up from my backyard, rinsed them a little, then threw them in the tank. Again, it didn't seem to bother the chaetodon, but I've never tried them with any other species.

The other trick to soften water is to use peat moss (not peat humus.) I'm told the trick is to boil it before adding it to a filter bag. I tried it once, years ago, but never found any difference.

If you've got really difficult tap water to work with (like I do) and can't set up some sort of rainwater collection barrel or bucket, then you might want to invest in an RO system.[/b]

So the jury is still out on this one. Maybe the tree leaves would serve only as a toy to the fish.. FISH NEED TOYS TOO SANTA!

 

[Sonny Disposition]

Well, the answer is, it depends. Oak leaves have three potential water chemistry uses: 1) to bind with dissolved solids in your water, making it softer 2) to leach tannins into your water, coloring it brown, and making it like the natural habitat of blackwater fish and 3) to leach hyrdogen ions into the water, making it more acidic. How well this works is variable, from area to area, depending on the local tap water. They won't soften or acidify my tap water, but they might soften and acidify yours (depending on what's in it.) Try it and see. If you're keeping fish from a blackwater habitat, they probably won't hurt anything.

The other potential use is as a habitat. Small South American cichlids often live in the leaf litter along the shoreline in their native habitats. If you put old leaves in your tank, eventually they'll stop floating and sink, and your apistos and other small cichlids will start staking out territories underneath them. I would guess that eventually, the leaves would start to decay, and you might have water quality issues, but from my experience with them, I'd guess this would take a long time.



So the jury is still out on this one. Maybe the tree leaves would serve only as a toy to the fish.. FISH NEED TOYS TOO SANTA!
[/quote]

 

[Pat Kelly]

[/quote] Pat: On cichlid-forum Blair, the fellow who writes about oak leaves says.... only get leaves that have already fallen as they have less tanin. Also, you have to boil them...which would tank care of your concern about contamination.
Later,
Marge
[/quote]

Makes sense.
He has more experiance in this than me. I have only used them one time.
I just remember reading about someone picking leaves from the yard and later, after loosing all the fish, realizing the amount of pesticides and fertilizer that they had put on the yard in the fall. They did not boil.

 

[Spine]

bump

 

[Spine]

I've just been rinsing my oak leaves and tossing them in the tank (haven't had any problems yet). I also use tropical almond leaves(TERMINALIA CATAPPA) they claim that they have antibacterial properties and this combined with a low ph aid in keeping fish from a blackwater habitat from getting any bacterial related problems. I have also run a canister filter filled with peat on a storage vat of water this did soften the water. You can get the same results if you put the peat in a filter bag and let it soak but this takes longer. If you have a RO unit you can make just about any combination you want with tap water.

 

[mscichlid]

Boiling oak leaves serves the purposes of killing of any insect cacoon or eggs that may be on the leaf (that you did not see) and to make tthe leaves sink.

 

[Spine]

Franny,
How long do you cook the leaves? Could you use the microwave instead?

 

[ltrepeter2000]

Kevin

You probably could microwave but you need to do it emersed in water, the boiling water breaks down some of the natural structure of the leaves which is what eventually leads to sinking in nature. The temps in the microwave should be hot enough to kill off any eggs Cook time varies. I usually leave mine in the pot while it boils for about 5 to 10 minutes but I dont think there is a standard time.

Rob

 

[George]

I have used oak leaves from time to time. I would think boiling would remove some of the things I wanted in my water as well as those I didn't. I can assure you boiling would help destroy the cell structure and make sure your leaves rotted and added to the mulm faster. Rinsing seems smart. I have usually just picked them up or cut them off the tree and put them in. Certainly if you knew they had been treated you would be careful or simply not use them.

Leaves seem a very slow method toward softening. RO is now relatively cheap unless you have huge tanks but there is a lot of waste water. I haven't used it but DI seems worth a try. It doesn't waste water and is effective. I am not sure if DI is economical.

I guess the African Cichlid folks have the answer but their constant pointless frenetic activities bored me after awhile. That was the activity of the fish, not the African Cichlid folks. The African Cichlid folks' activity remained fairly interesting.

George

 

[mscichlid]

Franny,
How long do you cook the leaves? Could you use the microwave instead?[/b]

I used to bring the water to a boil and then turn them off. The leaves would sit in the pot until I was finished doing other things in the fish room. I did learn later, as George has stated, that just putting them in the tank makes them last longer.

I would never use my microwave for leaves or anything else that I didn't plan to eat. I purchased a big 20 qt aluminum pot years ago from Ames for all my fishy boiling needs.

 

[Discus-Hans]

Hmmmmm in Holland we buy this in a bottle lol

WHAT ????? No, realy no kidding Oak leave extract it's a "natural" way to lower your Ph, if you had soft water add a little, hard water a little more. Doesn't make your water harder or softer.

Now if you boil the leaves, drain the water trough a fine net, see what the Ph of the boiled water is, I guess very low, use a little of this and probaly it will lower your Ph too.

Hans