Holes In Head On New Fish

[cyradis4]

The added ingredients are additional minerals in salt form. I think regular aquarium salt is just one, possibly two kinds of salt. Instant Ocean is much better. And you're much less likely to go overboard on one particular mineral. And I don't think any minerals ever evaporate..... neither do sulfates. Which is why when adding water to make up for evaporation, you DON"T add any more salt.

Your salt treatment also sounds pretty good. And by the third water change, if I have my percentages right, all bacterial activity has stopped.....

Later!
Amanda.

 

[longstocking]

With my own eyes I have seen problems occur from adding salt. Most had to do with their lungs believe it or not. We are talking LOTS of salt though. Try 5 to 10 teaspoons per 10 gallons of water( these people... note more than one has done this....added salt to get the gh up to "tang" levels !!! You aren't going to run into problems with 1 or 2 teaspoons. Realize that malawi for instance does not have hard water though A LOT of people think it is hard water..... it just has a high ph ( that doesn't mean it's hard water). I think malawi actually has a gh of about 4-6 if I remember correctly. While lake tang is around 11-17.

If you add rocks to your tank... do regular water changes.... you have minerals in your tank. I couldn't find it... but there was an actual test on the minerals in lake tang. Wish I could find the dang thing !

Here is a nice little explanation of salts:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

I'm sick and I can't sleep

Correct me if I'm wrong... but can't malawi fish live for quite a bit longer than 3-5 years? WOW... tha'ts short, if that's the case. Tangs can live over 10 years.

 

[cyradis4]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (longstocking @ Feb 18 2008, 01:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

With my own eyes I have seen problems occur from adding salt. Most had to do with their lungs believe it or not. We are talking LOTS of salt though. Try 5 to 10 teaspoons per 10 gallons of water( these people... note more than one has done this....added salt to get the gh up to "tang" levels !!! You aren't going to run into problems with 1 or 2 teaspoons. Realize that malawi for instance does not have hard water though A LOT of people think it is hard water..... it just has a high ph ( that doesn't mean it's hard water). I think malawi actually has a gh of about 4-6 if I remember correctly. While lake tang is around 11-17.

If you add rocks to your tank... do regular water changes.... you have minerals in your tank. I couldn't find it... but there was an actual test on the minerals in lake tang. Wish I could find the dang thing !

Here is a nice little explanation of salts:

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/aquarium_salts.php

I'm sick and I can't sleep

Correct me if I'm wrong... but can't malawi fish live for quite a bit longer than 3-5 years? WOW... tha'ts short, if that's the case. Tangs can live over 10 years.[/b]

Sick seems to be going around. My insomnia is due to the last 15 homeworks I am in the process of grading, not illness per sa..... Though I'm kinda sick of grading.

I thought the hardness was around 7 or 8 ish. 4 ish is much closer to SA water. But it was a lot lower then Tangs. Though I think you mean TABLEspoons.

Don't know about Malawi's, but many of the larger SAs will live 10 or more years. The smaller ones can live for a few years up to a long time.

To me, it seems like Bobby's problem is intestinal issues that develop with age. What do you feed? Protein heavy? veggie heavy? Many older creatures start having problems with digestion as they get up in age.

Later!
Amanda.

 

[longstocking]

No I meant teaspoons Mom was a home making teacher I saw them add the salt with a regular teaspoon from the kitchen :lol:

Malawi from Konings book :

" The conductivity, a measure of mineral content, ranges between 200 and 260 microSiemens, which is relatively low in comparison with the otherlakes of the East African Rift Valley."

Now I'm not the best at conversions so correct me if I'm wrong.

The 4-6 was taken from Brichards book.

 

[phishphorphun]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Sarah said: Correct me if I'm wrong... but can't Malawi fish live for quite a bit longer than 3-5 years? WOW... that's short, if that's the case. Tangs can live over 10 years.[/b]

I think they can live up to ten years too. I had Aulonocara Jacobfreibergi, that I bred, live to eight years. The three to five years is the time that I have kept some of the fish I have lost. Many of the haps and peacocks that I got about five years ago were probably at least two years old. I bought a bunch that came from the guy that make New Life Spectrum through Exotic Aquatics. Other fish, like my A. Baenschi and S. Fryeri are about seven years old. Example, I just got a peacock from Mike. I'm guessing it is around two years old. And another thing to point out. On many cases, I have just got rid of the fish when they got too beat up from the stress resulting from the aggression of the healthier fish. I probably could have gotten another year or two from them if I nursed and quarantined them. But I haven't the room. So don't jump to conclusions from what you read (especially if you read what I write. lol). :wink:

And the diet of all my fish (except occasional brine shrimp) is NLS. Before that it was the Cichlid sticks from...whoever. But always dry pellet food and flakes that were marketed for African cichlids. I have seen bloat develop in my fish. It usually shows up about three years after I have kept them. I don't think the salt is the culprit. More likely the diet and/or parasites IMO.

 

[animicrazy]

Bobby,
How is the fish ? Also, with my Africans, I have found that when they act weird (weirder if Tropheus), I feed them only vegie flake for a while (Omega One) - cleans them out real good. I use lots of NLS in different types - different fish - but I also vary the diet. No matter how good a food is it still might be missing something that's in another food.

Somewhere I have a science journal article on salt and treatment of fish diseases. I'll dig it up and post the link.

Paul. aka (The Mad Scientist)

 

[marge618]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phishphorphun @ Feb 17 2008, 02:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I have been using Instant Ocean in my water since day one when I started keeping African cichlids. That's about twenty years. And I have always used extra salt (Instant Ocean) when I feel the fish needed a little medical attention. Seems to be a safe additive to the water and some of it stays in the tank as the water evaporates.

Marge, it's the same fish. [/b]

Bobby, the 'after' picture is spectacular. The colors of this fish are amazing. Vibrant and almost sychodylic (sp). Do you do something extra with the flash to get that intense color...or is the fish just BEAUTIFUL?

I am starting to wonder if a little salt is a good idea in any African Cichlid tank to help bring out the colors in the fish.

Amanda, how is it that there is salt in the rift lakes?

Later,
Marge

 

[George]

This certainly is interesting. I'm no longer keeping any Rift lake fish but did for quite awhile. At first I used a mixture of Instant Ocean, Epson Salts, and baking soda. I kept mostly but not exclusively Tropheus. I don't remember the proportions but it was only a couple teaspoons per 5 gallons. It worked great and I ONLY fed my Tropheus Veggie flake. I'm definitely not saying that is the only way to go but I did it for five or six years and never had a single case of bloat.

After awhile I got lazy. I was also keeping a couple of salt water tanks and had a salt water buffer that I used in those tanks. I started using just the buffer (about 8.2) and quit the salts. I really didn't see a difference. That may not work for everyone since you may have different water. I have Fairfax county water which is pretty hard to start with. I know Ron Nielson has much softer water that I would love to have over there in Servern Maryland. I do remember that I saw articles about being careful with the Epson Salts because of the sulfate just like Amanda has pointed out.

The Rift lakes are just that, rifts in rock. The rock dissolves to a point making the water very hard (compared to the rockless Amazon anyway). The minerals in the rock create salts but certainly not sodium Chloride, which we all think of when we say salt.

One last point, or maybe two. I have been told for years that salt treatment for ailing fish works two ways. As Amanda has pointed out it knocks out the bacteria and can, in high enough doses, knock out fresh water parasites. This may not hurt the fish as much as the parasites since it is my understanding that cichlids actually started as salt water fish trapped in fresh water lakes. These are good things. The other thing salt does could almost be considered a bad thing with a good result. It irritates the skin of the fish and stimulates the creation of more natural slime. This slime helps cure the other things that ails the fish while fending off the salt irritation.

I have posted this before and some folks neither believe or like it but when I stress my fish by hitting them with salt I use three (3) teaspoons per gallon. Even corys have done well with this. I do it gradually over 24 hours and generally only do it for a week or less before I start accelerated water changes to back it off. It has always worked well for me.

The bottom line with the rift lake stuff is not so much salt but ph and hardness, not "salt". Salt sort of fakes it. That's why you use that nice coral and aragonite rocks like the salt water guys. I should add that all my African tanks did use aragonite.

Does that make sense?

George

 

[cyradis4]

Yup, and three teaspoons is a tablespoon, so your using basically a table spoon per gallon, which stops bacterial activity. Thats the dose I was told to use back when I first started keeping Discus and had a bacterial bloom. I almost choked!!!! But it certainly worked..... As the Discus did, in fact, survive and the the tank cleared up.

Bobby, have you noticed any change in the holes on the fish? I'm rather curious! I've never seen a case QUITE like that one....

Later!
Amanda.

 

[phishphorphun]

Amanda and Paul, I have not responded to your request about his progress because I haven't noticed any noticeable changes. I just got home from work. Read this thread. Grabbed the camera and took a shot of him for you all. His color is great. Good appetite. Very active in his new home and a real camera ham. He just has a bad complexion. :happy0012:

It only took one shot to get this for you.

I think it may take a couple weeks before we see any noticeable changes. I provide periodical photographic updates. :character0053:

 

[phishphorphun]

Marge, the colors of the fish are not over saturated by me in photoshop. The flash sometimes provide more vibrant colors than the normal overhead lighting when it is properly powered and diffused. The Lwandas are very interesting. Depending on the angle of the fish, the flash illuminates them differently. Sometimes the blues are electric blue, and other times a navy blue. The yellow is sometimes a lemon yellow, and other times a orange yellow. My old Lwanda was the same way. Also, the fish will "light up" when it is showing it's natural dominating aggressive colors.

Simply put. it's the fish's color mood, and it also is the flash that determine whether the fish is flat, washy, or vibrant in color.

 

[marge618]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phishphorphun @ Feb 19 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Marge, the colors of the fish are not over saturated by me in photoshop. The flash sometimes provide more vibrant colors than the normal overhead lighting when it is properly powered and diffused. The Lwandas are very interesting. Depending on the angle of the fish, the flash illuminates them differently. Sometimes the blues are electric blue, and other times a navy blue. The yellow is sometimes a lemon yellow, and other times a orange yellow. My old Lwanda was the same way. Also, the fish will "light up" when it is showing it's natural dominating aggressive colors.

Simply put. it's the fish's color mood, and it also is the flash that determine whether the fish is flat, washy, or vibrant in color.[/b]

Bobby, nice explanation. I especially like the terms "light up" and "color mood". With such information the pics are even more interesting. The vibrant colors stick with you when you think of the fish later...even when the pic is no longer on the screen. If these jewel colors also make good prints for frames your photography must be in high demand.

Now I think that it is time for me to see a fish show that exhibits a lot of these fabulous fish pics. Sometimes the pics seem brighter than the fish itself. Then you go back..look at the individual fish...and say YUP = that's the fish in the picture. Isn't he gorgeous!

Bobby, Thanks for taking the time to describe what happens with the flash.
Later,
Marge

 

[marge618]

I read this recently by a moderator 'The Fish Guy" on cichlid-forum

"When fish get sick in the wild they go to shallow water. Why? Because in a river system the shallow water is highly oxygenated, warmer and replenished more often. We're just trying to duplicate mother nature... the major differences are the salt and the fact that there's no predators around to pick off the sick fish.... Make sense?"

He was talking about Monster Fish Rescue saving ailing fish. He goes through step 1..2..3 etc for addressing all sorts of fish ailments. Salt seems to be of great significance.

Now all I have to do is determine how this applies to my tanks. Precautionary, necessary, or to be used as needed in a hospital tank? :confused0083:

Later,
Marge

 

[animicrazy]

Bobby: Thanks for the pic !! Seems fish might look better. Also, never used it on Africans, but when I get damaged fish I use pure Tea Tree extract (1 drop/55gals), it's the pure form of Melifix.

GJR2: The journal article I have recommended similar dosing as you mentioned - dip method, or dose the whole tank then do 10% water changes - w/o salt - to gradually lower the concentration. From a study conducted at a university. Works great every time for parasites with discus (I have a lot of discus but not a lot of problems).

I don't like using script type meds either, but when I have to I will; wilds come in stressed and loaded with crap - those I always clean out regardless of how they look. Just what works for me.

Keep the status reports coming !!! Thanks again.

Paul.

 

[SubMariner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (animicrazy @ Feb 17 2008, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Amanda: What have you been smoking???

Bobby ?: Please keep us posted.

Paul.[/b]

I must say...that's fascinating information! Love the topic and thread.

I personally have learned a lot from all our CCA experts including Amanda, Sarah, Bobby and the Mad Scientist himself. Great stuff guys!

 

[animicrazy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SubMariner @ Feb 21 2008, 01:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (animicrazy @ Feb 17 2008, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amanda: What have you been smoking???

Bobby ?: Please keep us posted.

Paul.[/b]

I must say...that's fascinating information! Love the topic and thread.

I personally have learned a lot from all our CCA experts including Amanda, Sarah, Bobby and the Mad Scientist himself. Great stuff guys!
[/b][/quote]

To be included in the elite members you mentioned is either an honor or a cry for a psychiatric examination.

Thank you,

T. M. S.

 

[SubMariner]

Anytime Buddy!

 

[DeeCee]

Bobby - how's the fish doing, anyway?

DC

 

[phishphorphun]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

Bobby - how's the fish doing, anyway?[/b]

Eating like a pig. I just did a close check up of him a few minutes ago. Color is still great. Body expression excellent with spread fins and showing normal peacock behavioral signs of pugnaciousness. But still has that acne problem. :angry:

Edit: Added this quick closeup snapshot. Is it spreading?

 

[cyradis4]

Actually...... I think it MIGHT be getting a bit better.... Can you get a head on shot similar to the first pic you posted? And do you have a side shot like the most recent, but taken at the time of the first one? Unless I'm very much mistaken, the "spreading" acne was always there. But in the first shot, it was in the shadow, so you couldn't see.

The reason I would like to see a new head on shot is this: It might be because of the angle, but it looks like the pits on the front of the face are a bit shallower. So if we could get anther front shot, it would be much easier to compare.

Later!
Amanda.