Fry keep dying

[Greengirl]

This is the third time my angel spawn have died. I have tried removing wiggglers and putting them in a hangon marina box. My angels spawn, and take great care of the fry, but I want them all to make it. But two-three days after I put the fry in the hangon box, they all die for some reason. This is the same box I used to raise a successful spawn that I sold in aqua fest last month. Any ideas what's going on here? I've tried removing the fry when they have just become wigglers, and when they are close to free swimming. They all die after a few days. Any ideas?

 

[Becca]

Temperature fluctuation.

The flow in the fry box is pretty slow, so odds are it's impacted by the ambient room temperature faster than the main tank. The fry are also more sensitive to these fluctuations. With the weather getting colder, this is more of an issue, especially if you open windows during the day, etc. That's my best guess, at least.

You'll never have all of them make it and since you have a hard time culling sliders, etc., you might be better off leaving them with the parents to raise because they'll do some of the culling naturally.

 

[blkmjk]

How are you moving them? Vac? Net? Other?

I have had good luck moving wigglers with a siphon. But none other means have near that level of success. IME. Hand on boxes have worked well for me but flow is key. Lots of air. I also have a sponge on the incoming water as a bio filter and leaving so I don't lose wigglers.

Drew

Drew

 

[Greengirl]

I use a turkey baster. But I don't think moving them is the problem. They survive for several days before the majority of them die all at once the next time I check on them.

 

[DougGosnell]

oddly, my first couple batches from a new pair have been known to die for no apparent reason. Not sure why this happens but once the pair are more established, everything goes like clockwork.

 

[Greengirl]

All dead again

I had another round of fry die on me again. This time I put all the eggs in a separate cycled tank that tested perfect before I moved the eggs in. They hatched and wiggled and look very healthy. Then the day they should start free swimming they all dropped dead again. I don't know what to do at this point. My first spawns all did really well, now I can't keep any alive.

Is there something microscopicly wrong with my water. Should I run the UV sterilizer I have in the tank will trying to grow my next round of fry? Do you guys think that would help at all? Should I UV Sterilize the water before I put fry in? Please advise, I'm really at a loss and I want some Charity Angels to sell at Aquamania.

 

[Becca]

What happens if you let the parents raise them?

 

[JasonC]

Could it simply be a problem of starving to death? Not enough micro-organisms in the freshly set up hang on box or the separate tank? What if you let them stay in tank for a week or two longer to bulk up? Or have a fry tank ready to go at all times with a pile of Java Moss in it for a surface for the microfauna to grow on?

grabbing at straws here... I've had big dieoffs in the the past too... very frustrating.

 

[Greengirl]

What happens if you let the parents raise them?

The parents will raise them for quite some time until they fry start to swim. When that happens the parents get annoyed at trying to keep track of them and eventually eat them all.

 

[Greengirl]

Could it simply be a problem of starving to death? Not enough micro-organisms in the freshly set up hang on box or the separate tank? What if you let them stay in tank for a week or two longer to bulk up? Or have a fry tank ready to go at all times with a pile of Java Moss in it for a surface for the microfauna to grow on?

grabbing at straws here... I've had big dieoffs in the the past too... very frustrating.

I thought of that, and used gravel and half the water from the parents' tank. Then I put the parents in the newer tank for 5 days and started a cycle. Took the parents out, waited a week for the tests to be good, then I moved the first set of eggs they laid. There was just a little java moss. I can add more.

 

[Becca]

The parents will raise them for quite some time until they fry start to swim. When that happens the parents get annoyed at trying to keep track of them and eventually eat them all.

Why not move the parents once the fry are free swimming, rather than moving the more sensitive fry?

 

[Greengirl]

I never really had a safe place to put the parents that was also big enough for them. And I wanted to be able to keep better track of the fry in a smaller tank.

 

[ltrepeter2000]

Better to get most of a batch that survive to free swimming than to lose all of a batch away from the parents. I know that discus fry actually eat off their parents slime the first few days so as much as this isn't absolutely required for angels, I could see it being a factor

 

[rsretep]

What are you feeding the fry?

 

[neut]

Could it simply be a problem of starving to death? Not enough micro-organisms in the freshly set up hang on box or the separate tank? What if you let them stay in tank for a week or two longer to bulk up? Or have a fry tank ready to go at all times with a pile of Java Moss in it for a surface for the microfauna to grow on?

That's what I was thinking, not that it's definitely the answer or there aren't other possibilities. Or have you changed what you feed them? But I raise fry (of whatever species) in tanks that grow some algae and have some mature driftwood branches or bits with a good biofilm on them. Fry of just about any species pick at this throughout the day and in between feedings ime.

But a number of physiological and biochemical changes happen as fry develop, some depending on various chemical triggers or impeded for various environmental, nutritional, or other reasons, so I'm not trying to be too simplistic and say that's definitely the answer. An example in aquaculture is that recent study (with angelfish) has found meds that many have used for years to keep eggs from fungusing can actually cause problems-- swim bladder non inflation.

On another note, I've never done bare tanks for any fish, any species, and this includes fry-- of whatever species, including angelfish (and discus). Reasons were personal preference and what I consider to be more natural, but there's some recent evidence there's a disadvantage to fish brain development in bare tanks.
study reported in 2006

study reported this year

 

[mchambers]

Yikes! Maybe I should stop using Methylene Blue with my cory eggs? Interesting summary, in any event.

 

[neut]

...went back and found this... actually goes into more detail about the study (without having to buy the original report), including that angelfish fry do better at 82.4 degrees than 78.8 degrees.

 

[mchambers]

Interesting:

"The results also showed that methylene blue, acriflavine and hydrogen peroxide cause the condition."

Wonder if alder cones cause the condition?

 

[Tony]

Why not move the parents once the fry are free swimming, rather than moving the more sensitive fry?

Better to get most of a batch that survive to free swimming than to lose all of a batch away from the parents. I know that discus fry actually eat off their parents slime the first few days so as much as this isn't absolutely required for angels, I could see it being a factor

You two read my mind.

 

[Greengirl]

I will definitely take all your advice under advisement.

Miraculously, after I had turned off all life support to the tank, the heater, the air, everything. I had drained half the water and then left it there for two days. I went to check the rest of the water and found two fry swiming around looking healthy. That water was really cold!! I have no idea how they survived but I caught them and put them in my 10 g that I never emptied and has a crazy java moss explosion. day two and they are nipping food growing on the glass. These two guys are survivors and I'm going to give them every chance now.