Flowerhorns

[dogofwar]

I wish that fish stores would properly label non-hybrids...to say nothing of posting prices. I won't say what fish store I recently visited had Vieja argentea listed as Tanganyikans...

Here's a proposal: How about brining in a Flowerhorn expert to talk about all of the different varieties of Flowerhorns, what makes a good quality flowerhorn vs. a bad quality one, and how to keep and breed them?

I WISH that pet stores would note when fish are hybrids though. It makes it really hard for the average hobbyist to know what they're buying when they first start out, unless they do all kinds of research before they buy. How unlikely is THAT?

DC[/b]

 

[SubMariner]

Hey Guys take it easy will ya....I passed off a hybrid Flower horn to my mother and she absolutely loves him.

Of course he's one nasty SOB, but he gives my mom the attention she loves instead of some angel fish or goldfish.

I do understand the logistics of the whole hybrid argument, however, I wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars for this kind of fish like many people do. I merely paid $8 bucks for my flower horn(GODZILLA) and now he's a monster who is about to sign his on movie deal.

There are some very cool looking Flower horns or Red Dragon ones, but hey, there about to clone Humans Dude!

What then?

I'm out....[/b]

Darn it.......now I've gotta tell my mom that the big fat fish she has in her family room is really not a fancy goldfish after all, but a Hybrid Flower horn. :wacko:


Bad Richard!!!

 

[George]

Damn!!!!!!!!!!! Yo Paul, take it easy Dude!

Steelfist, you got served!!!!!! :smashfreakB:

OK Duane, you're up to bat.[/b]

Please don't instigate heated discussions. This post is of valid concerns and should invite all who have opinions to feel free to voice them without judgement or malicous intent.
[/b]

Ah, come on, what's wrong with a little malicious intent?

George

 

[animicrazy]

Francine: Nothing heated from me - just intellectual discourse; if I am taken otherwise I am being taken wrong. (still luv ya
baby!!)

Richard: Dude, you not only insulted my thousands of Angelfish you just about fished my Fat Goldfish right out of his
tank!! :lol:

dogofwar: great commentary!

SteelFist: great commentary as well and a worthy "sparing" partner you are!!


To the rest of you, for whom I have nothing but admiration and good feelings, an education will be forthcoming.
The issues of species ID and genetics, especially the latter, are poorly understood. I will produce an article for the next Biotope that will delve into the many factors that affect genetics and tie the basic (a term with specific meaning in this context) science to applied science that people interested, as I am, in preserving as much of the wild in "wild type" will be able to put into use. A new thread can then evolve to attend to this issue.

However, my position stands: Evolution is occurring in every breeders tanks - reality exists not because of your acceptance but rather for, or in spite of, your belief.

Thanks for the spirited discussion!!

Paul McClaskey.

 

[SubMariner]

Francine: Nothing heated from me - just intellectual discourse; if I am taken otherwise I am being taken wrong. (still luv ya
baby!!)

Richard: Dude, you not only insulted my thousands of Angelfish you just about fished my Fat Goldfish right out of his
tank!! :lol:

dogofwar: great commentary!

SteelFist: great commentary as well and a worthy "sparing" partner you are!!


To the rest of you, for whom I have nothing but admiration and good feelings, an education will be forthcoming.
The issues of species ID and genetics, especially the latter, are poorly understood. I will produce an article for the next Biotope that will delve into the many factors that affect genetics and tie the basic (a term with specific meaning in this context) science to applied science that people interested, as I am, in preserving as much of the wild in "wild type" will be able to put into use. A new thread can then evolve to attend to this issue.

However, my position stands: Evolution is occurring in every breeders tanks - reality exists not because of your acceptance but rather for, or in spite of, your belief.

Thanks for the spirited discussion!!

Paul McClaskey.[/b]

I'm glad you got a kick out of my fat gold fish story!

 

[animicrazy]

I'll post a pic

Hybrid or not I love the fish; all 7 inches of tail attached to a misshapen tennis ball!!

P.

 

[Musha]

I don't have any scientific explanation. All I can say is that they are beautiful fish! I just bought 4 babies. I also own 6 other hybrids. Humans are arrogant, we have no true way of concluding how many time fish have crossbred in the wild before we started taking notes. If you like them go for it. Only time I get touchy when it come to cross breeding is what it come to rare and endangered species.

 

[crazyclowntang]

Should we have a Hybrid section for these fish? I know they come from fish that are from Central America, but they are not a natural species, they are man made. I have one, I think they are cool fish but I hope people buy them for the right reasons.

 

[SubMariner]

Yea, to cook'em! They're pretty tasty,you said it yourself right?

Just kidding!


Richard

 

[crazyclowntang]

jajajajajaja I got it Submariner LMAO

 

[F8LBITE]

I think, because this club follows the ACA guidelines about hybridization a FH section of the forum probably wouldnt fly. That doesnt mean we cant appreciate them for what they are. Ive seen some that are gorgeous hybrid or not.

 

[Mikeinco]

I've recently been looking at flowerhorns again. I might end up with a group of Bonsai's down the road. I love the look of the shorter hybrids in a tank with a couple different kinds.

 

[dogofwar]

The ACA doens't have an official policy on Flowerhorns or hybridization.

I think, because this club follows the ACA guidelines about hybridization a FH section of the forum probably wouldnt fly. That doesnt mean we cant appreciate them for what they are. Ive seen some that are gorgeous hybrid or not.

 

[danger_chicken]

I like pretty fish hybrid or not. But talking about hybrids is like talking about religion and politics. People have formed strong opinions one way or the other and rarely budge from them no matter what evidence, logic or ideas are presented (on either side). I'm officially adding hybrids to my do not discuss list. But that's just my opinion and I may be wrong

 

[Lively]

Hmm, I didn't even know that a FH was a hybrid - until I stumbled on the thread. I agree with everyone who said education is key - first time I saw them it was a huge mated pair. I remember thinking, "What an interesting fish!"

I did kinda take offense at being called a "nut-case" but, I figure sooner or later we will all have our answer to that. If the evolutionists are right it won't matter much 'cause there will be nothing...

One day, in a place and time far, far, away - science and religion will realize that they are one and the same: A search for the truth.[/qoute]

Religion, at least mine, doesn't exclude science - however science routinely excludes my religion. And frankly speaking - there is no such thing as "truth" there is only ones perception of reality - three blind men and an elephant. Each spoke the truth as he knew it - and yet all were woefully wrong.

 

[Sonny Disposition]

To answer Matt's question about hybrid livebearers: There doesn't seem to be the animosity between keepers of hybrid molly and swordtail strains as there does between regular cichlid keepers and flowerhorn breeders.

I spent years working with sailfin mollies. I'm convinced that it's so difficult to develop a nice strain of large males because of all the hybridization between mollie species that has taken place.
That makes them incredibly frustrating to work with. Since I like to breed fish, and establish a nice line that breeds true to type, I'm not inclined to work with hybrids of any kind. On the other hand, discus species have probably been hybridized out the wazoo and there don't seem to be any issues with breeding them (outside of the ordinary.)

I'm thinking, too, that people who breed flowerhorns and show them aren't the problem. I'd guess they're interested in maintaining their established strains and would clearly label what they sell. But you have goofy and or unscrupulous people in all aspects of the hobby.

You all saw my post last month of what I thought was the best Yellow lab I'd ever had, but which, on closer inspection, was probably a hybrid between a yellow lab and a socolofi or a saulosi.

 

[dogofwar]

I think that there's so much emotion around flowerhorns because "flowerhorn" and "hybrid" have been (unjustifiably) equated (by some) with irresponsible behavior.

Truth is that there are (unfortunately) bad people doing unsavory things in all corners of the cichlid hobby...not just the world of flowerhorns and hybrids. For every flowerhorn guy selling his poor quality fish as "pure" trimacs...there's a wild-type guy selling tank raised fish as "wild". For every flowerhorn dumped in a stream in florida, there is an oscar dumped. For every mis-labeled bag of flowerhorns, there are mis-labeled bags of wild-type cichlids.

The biggest threat to the hobby is lack of (new) participants and irresponsible and unethical behavior by those who are already participants in the hobby.

I've written extensively - over at the ACA and elsewhere - to try to "bust" the myths that exist about flowerhorns and those who keep them (And I don't even keep them). We as a hobby are hurting ourselves if we don't contructively, rationally, discuss this topic. The decade-long battle "against" flowerhorns (and the people who keep them) has resulted in nothing positive...and the ossification of opinions and perpetuation of half-truths, myths, and misunderstanding in both the pro and against flowerhorn "camps".

Whether people get into cichlids as a result of flowerhorns...electric blue jack dempseys...mbuna...peacocks...or something else...the important thing is that they're into cichlids!

The bottom line is that those who enjoy flowerhorns and those who enjoy wild-type cichlids have a heck of a lot more in common than some would like to admit. There's room for all flavors of "cichlidiots" in the hobby...and the CCA Let's celebrate our commonalities...and focus our attention on those who act irresponsibly!

Matt

I like pretty fish hybrid or not. But talking about hybrids is like talking about religion and politics. People have formed strong opinions one way or the other and rarely budge from them no matter what evidence, logic or ideas are presented (on either side). I'm officially adding hybrids to my do not discuss list. But that's just my opinion and I may be wrong

 

[crazyclowntang]

I have one and really enjoy its beauty. I try to buy fish from responsible breeders.....which is all i can do.

 

[danger_chicken]

I think that there's so much emotion around flowerhorns because "flowerhorn" and "hybrid" have been (unjustifiably) equated (by some) with irresponsible behavior.

Truth is that there are (unfortunately) bad people doing unsavory things in all corners of the cichlid hobby...not just the world of flowerhorns and hybrids. For every flowerhorn guy selling his poor quality fish as "pure" trimacs...there's a wild-type guy selling tank raised fish as "wild". For every flowerhorn dumped in a stream in florida, there is an oscar dumped. For every mis-labeled bag of flowerhorns, there are mis-labeled bags of wild-type cichlids.

The biggest threat to the hobby is lack of (new) participants and irresponsible and unethical behavior by those who are already participants in the hobby.

I've written extensively - over at the ACA and elsewhere - to try to "bust" the myths that exist about flowerhorns and those who keep them (And I don't even keep them). We as a hobby are hurting ourselves if we don't contructively, rationally, discuss this topic. The decade-long battle "against" flowerhorns (and the people who keep them) has resulted in nothing positive...and the ossification of opinions and perpetuation of half-truths, myths, and misunderstanding in both the pro and against flowerhorn "camps".

Whether people get into cichlids as a result of flowerhorns...electric blue jack dempseys...mbuna...peacocks...or something else...the important thing is that they're into cichlids!

The bottom line is that those who enjoy flowerhorns and those who enjoy wild-type cichlids have a heck of a lot more in common than some would like to admit. There's room for all flavors of "cichlidiots" in the hobby...and the CCA Let's celebrate our commonalities...and focus our attention on those who act irresponsibly!

Matt

Best comment on the subject I've ever read. I've tried to say the same thing many times but the point didn't take.

 

[Mikeinco]

Best comment on the subject I've ever read. I've tried to say the same thing many times but the point didn't take.

I second that. Best Comment on the Flowerhorn subject I've read too. I just wish all these folks that are against them would come around and just accept them in the Cichlid hobby. We'd have so many more hobbiest if we just all got together as a group. I have absolutely no problem with hybrids and Flowerhorns and I've been in the hobby for a good 15 years. I was really disappointed that Cinn, ditched the Flowerhorn class this year just because of some misguided comments by some of the long standing ACA members. It would have been a total blast to get all the Cichlids together and have a fish war lol afterall the theme this year is the Hybrid Menace.