Flowerhorns

SteelFist

Members
I apologize if there's already been a topic on this (which I'm sure it has), but I've been out of the hobby for awhile and just got back into it this past Nov. In doing so, I noticed these new breed of fishes in particular the FH and Red Texas. I've read somewhere that these fish aren't found in the wild and that they where hybrid so w/o looking into it and just being enamored by their colors and personalities, all of which I've seen on Youtube, I said WOW....I want one of these.

After discovering this site and the links to many other sites, I've noticed that there are many who don't agree with the existence of these fishes. Then I was curious to find out why so I did. And while I don't see these hybrids as an immediate threat to the hobby and ethics of nature, I feel a little disturbed if I contribute to something I may later regret. I most certanly would not support this with humans.

Just wondering if there are any of you that feel the same way. :unsure:
 

mscichlid

Founder
I think flowerehorns have their place in the hobby. There are so many younger aquarist in the hobby because of them. There are some folks here that keep them, I found out. Personally, I would never buy one.

Most cichlid clubs follow the American Cichlid Association's recognition and validation of pure cichlid species and in that regard is pretty much where I stand.


But, on the otherhand, if there were an occasion to have a Flowerhorn class at a future local show, and participation in the show escalated to astronomical porportions, I might not be so rigidly opposed to them.

Francine
 

fishfarm

Members
I personnaly think we should keep pure species, but flowerhorns do have there following, I own thousands of cichlids, most with collection location data and breed and distribute new wild type fish into the hobby, that said, I have one flowerhorn and one bloody parrot, both were given to me by people who didn't want them to go to a pet shop when they moved, why I still keep them I don't know other than curiosity as to what they will turn out like and I have plenty of tank space. So to each his own. Ken
 

longstocking

Members
Personally I would never own one.

But, what you do in your own home is your business. And what you enjoy only matters to you.

Now... if you are producing these fish... and selling them to hobbyists that are not familiar with how they came about.... that I am against.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Although I don't and haven't ever owned a flowerhorn, I can understand the appeal: bright colors, big hump, aggressive and owner-responsive...basically what makes red devils and the like cool.

To keep and breed flowerhorns takes all of the skill (maybe more) as keeping and breeding wild-type cichlids. I don't even pretend to understand all of the different varieties of flowerhorns. These varieties didn't occur randomly, but as a result of skilled breeders. Of course, not everyone in the hobby is so concientious...

I know several folks who got into the traditional cichlid hobby via flowerhorns...and a few who got into Flowerhorns from the traditional cichlid hobby.

I say: to each his/her own :) Just don't try to pass off one thing as another!

What's great about this hobby is that there's room for so many sub-hobbies: bettas, killies, discus, reefs, oddballs...and yes Flowerhorns.

As an aside, is there as much rancor between keepers of wild-type livebearers and "fancy" livebearers as there is between cichlid and Flowerhorn enthusiasts?
 

DeeCee

Members
I'm not strictly a purist with fish (afterall, I love all the discus types & colors) and I believe that there are alot of hobbyists that don't even realize what is or is not a pure species. I remember as a kid getting some of those "painted glass" fish, now they have glow in the dark fish and fish that have insignias on them. To each his own - as long as you know what you're buying & and hopefully there'll always be folks that keep pure species pure as well.

DC
 

maddog10

Members
Part of the problem is that a lot of the people who buy Flowerhorns are buying "that pretty fish" and have no idea what is needed to care for it when it gets older.
I would never (knowingly) own one myself. I say knowingly because as juvies some look an awful lot like some of the pure bred species and I am sure that they get sold as such on occasion. That is part 2 of the problem.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
There are a heck of a lot of people who purchase pretty "pure bred" fish that they won't be able to take care of...and lots of juvies of "pure bred" fish are easy to mix up...to say nothing of "pure" varients of a given species.

Not sure why either would be a reason not to own a flowerhorn.

Part of the problem is that a lot of the people who buy Flowerhorns are buying "that pretty fish" and have no idea what is needed to care for it when it gets older.
I would never (knowingly) own one myself. I say knowingly because as juvies some look an awful lot like some of the pure bred species and I am sure that they get sold as such on occasion. That is part 2 of the problem.[/b]
 

maddog10

Members
There are a heck of a lot of people who purchase pretty "pure bred" fish that they won't be able to take care of...and lots of juvies of "pure bred" fish are easy to mix up...to say nothing of "pure" varients of a given species.

Not sure why either would be a reason not to own a flowerhorn.

<div class='quotemain'>Part of the problem is that a lot of the people who buy Flowerhorns are buying "that pretty fish" and have no idea what is needed to care for it when it gets older.
I would never (knowingly) own one myself. I say knowingly because as juvies some look an awful lot like some of the pure bred species and I am sure that they get sold as such on occasion. That is part 2 of the problem.[/b]
[/b][/quote]

Good points. To each his own. What you like might not be what I like.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Agreed - "to each his own" is what I said as well...although I don't keep Flowerhorns either :)

I've just never understood why some people are so violently opposed to keeping them... If you like red devils (probably hybrids) or trimacs, etc. what's not to like about flowerhorns?

There are many more people in this hobby than flowerhorn enthusiasts who hybridize fish indiscriminately, try to pass off hybrids as pure fish, and otherwise do less than savory things. In fact, the FH enthusiasts I've known are too busy culling substandard fish, doing water changes, and exporting "Super Red Kamfa Dragon Whatevers" from Malaysia for $500 to bother with trying to pass of their culls as "Trimacs"...

<div class='quotemain'>There are a heck of a lot of people who purchase pretty "pure bred" fish that they won't be able to take care of...and lots of juvies of "pure bred" fish are easy to mix up...to say nothing of "pure" varients of a given species.

Not sure why either would be a reason not to own a flowerhorn.

<div class='quotemain'>Part of the problem is that a lot of the people who buy Flowerhorns are buying "that pretty fish" and have no idea what is needed to care for it when it gets older.
I would never (knowingly) own one myself. I say knowingly because as juvies some look an awful lot like some of the pure bred species and I am sure that they get sold as such on occasion. That is part 2 of the problem.[/b]
[/b][/quote]

Good points. To each his own. What you like might not be what I like.
[/b][/quote]
 

SubMariner

Master Jedi & Past VP
Hey Guys take it easy will ya....I passed off a hybrid Flower horn to my mother and she absolutely loves him.

Of course he's one nasty SOB, but he gives my mom the attention she loves instead of some angel fish or goldfish.

I do understand the logistics of the whole hybrid argument, however, I wouldn't spend hundreds of dollars for this kind of fish like many people do. I merely paid $8 bucks for my flower horn(GODZILLA) and now he's a monster who is about to sign his on movie deal.

There are some very cool looking Flower horns or Red Dragon ones, but hey, there about to clone Humans Dude!

What then?

I'm out....
 

cyradis4

Members
Personally, my take on the whole Hybrid thing is that so long as they are sold for what they are, which is HYBRIDS, or the accepted name for the hybrids, if I like the fish I will buy it. I have no compunctions (like many) against hybrids. I will not BREED hybrids though, unless you count my domestic Angels or Discus who are very much hybrids already. I think of them more along the lines of different breeds, like Labrador Retrievers or Boxers or Pugs. People don't get up in arms about breeding a horse to a donkey, which produces the valuable mule, who is sterile and very useful and shares many of the better qualities of the horse and the donkey. People don't get upset breeding a Thoroughbred horse to an Arabian, producing the Anglo Arab who has many of the nicer qualities of the Arab while adding the size of the Thoroughbred. Some great horses are produced by crossing the hot blooded but VERY athletic and competitive but generally crazy Thoroughbred (I own one, I've ridden plenty of them, I love them but they are generally speaking crazy in one way or another) to a heavy draft horse, or one of the more placid breeds. You can say that those are different breeds, not species. And except in the case of the mule, you are right.

Some people will only buy a pure bred dog or a pure bred horse, some will NOT buy a pure bred dog, or a pure bred horse, and some don't care so long as the dog or horse is what they are looking for. And some people will only buy a pure bred fish, and some people don't care. I know that some of you think that producing hybrids is wrong. The only argument that has any weight with me is that it might be bad for the hobby. I personally don't see how, so long as the fish are sold under the proper name. And all kinds of fish are sold under the wrong names! Other then that many people here don't like them, I have seen no real reason for them not to exist. If any of you want, feel free to tell me WHY those hybrids are so wrong to have in the hobby.

These are my opinions on the subject. But I will warn you: they are long held and examined a great deal. I am not likely to change them.
 

SteelFist

Members
Personally, my take on the whole Hybrid thing is that so long as they are sold for what they are, which is HYBRIDS, or the accepted name for the hybrids, if I like the fish I will buy it. I have no compunctions (like many) against hybrids. I will not BREED hybrids though, unless you count my domestic Angels or Discus who are very much hybrids already. I think of them more along the lines of different breeds, like Labrador Retrievers or Boxers or Pugs. People don't get up in arms about breeding a horse to a donkey, which produces the valuable mule, who is sterile and very useful and shares many of the better qualities of the horse and the donkey. People don't get upset breeding a Thoroughbred horse to an Arabian, producing the Anglo Arab who has many of the nicer qualities of the Arab while adding the size of the Thoroughbred. Some great horses are produced by crossing the hot blooded but VERY athletic and competitive but generally crazy Thoroughbred (I own one, I've ridden plenty of them, I love them but they are generally speaking crazy in one way or another) to a heavy draft horse, or one of the more placid breeds. You can say that those are different breeds, not species. And except in the case of the mule, you are right.

Some people will only buy a pure bred dog or a pure bred horse, some will NOT buy a pure bred dog, or a pure bred horse, and some don't care so long as the dog or horse is what they are looking for. And some people will only buy a pure bred fish, and some people don't care. I know that some of you think that producing hybrids is wrong. The only argument that has any weight with me is that it might be bad for the hobby. I personally don't see how, so long as the fish are sold under the proper name. And all kinds of fish are sold under the wrong names! Other then that many people here don't like them, I have seen no real reason for them not to exist. If any of you want, feel free to tell me WHY those hybrids are so wrong to have in the hobby.

These are my opinions on the subject. But I will warn you: they are long held and examined a great deal. I am not likely to change them.[/b]

Not to get into a debate or anything, as I have limited knowledge on this topic, but here is a link that I found by simply typing "The truth about FH's" in google.

Flowerhorns

I realize its just someones point of view. But this was the only real combative article I found online expressing an opinion of why hybrids are wrong.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Very good posts.

In my perspective, this controversy is somewhat akin to the controvery between realists (e.g. still life painters) and surrealists, impressionists, and others in the world of art. More than one art critic has called the work of Monet, Picasso, and other "famous" artists "vulgar," distasteful, and the first step towards the appocolypse...because the work - no matter its merit - doesn't accurately portray (or distorts) the natural world.

I think it all comes down to this: Some people are engergized by the natural (replicating nature and its sublime beauty in their fish tanks) and some by the super-natural (enhancing nature in their fish tanks). To me whole concept of keeping a slice of a lake in a glass box in my basement is a little super-natural :) The PVC pipes and flower pots (not horns) probably don't help!

By super-natural, I'm not just referring to flower horns and other hybrids. I'm referring to other attempts to enhance the beauty of natural organisms: goldfish and koi, line bred peacocks, electric blue jack dempseys, long-finned varieties of fish, all of the fancy discus varieties, fancy guppies, bettas, mollies, etc....

Just as there is "bad" still life art (a portrait of Elvis that looks more like my uncle Mike), there is "bad" non-classical art (the blank white canvas or the urinal mounted on a wall comes to mind). Same is true in the aquarium hobby: jerks who mislabel and misrepresent fish, sell random hybrids as pure, breed and sell poor quality fish (ever seen poor quality fancy goldfish or bettas vs. top quality ones?), tattoo "I Love You" on Gouramis (Think your job sucks: imagine the poor guy in Thailand that spends 12 hours/ day, 7 days/week tattooing gouramis and painting glass fish).

I think that in time hobbyists (like art enthusiasts) will come to appreciate the merits of those who strive for quality fishkeeping, whether natural or super-natural. And hopefully more of those who have a passion for keeping wild-type fish can come to understand those who have a passion for flowerhorns (and vice-versa) My take is that the two groups people are closer that they think...and "cross pollentation" is something that should be encouraged.

Not sure why I'm so philosophical on a Thursday AM. Maybe too much coffee :wacko:

Matt

Personally, my take on the whole Hybrid thing is that so long as they are sold for what they are, which is HYBRIDS, or the accepted name for the hybrids, if I like the fish I will buy it. I have no compunctions (like many) against hybrids. I will not BREED hybrids though, unless you count my domestic Angels or Discus who are very much hybrids already. I think of them more along the lines of different breeds, like Labrador Retrievers or Boxers or Pugs. People don't get up in arms about breeding a horse to a donkey, which produces the valuable mule, who is sterile and very useful and shares many of the better qualities of the horse and the donkey. People don't get upset breeding a Thoroughbred horse to an Arabian, producing the Anglo Arab who has many of the nicer qualities of the Arab while adding the size of the Thoroughbred. Some great horses are produced by crossing the hot blooded but VERY athletic and competitive but generally crazy Thoroughbred (I own one, I've ridden plenty of them, I love them but they are generally speaking crazy in one way or another) to a heavy draft horse, or one of the more placid breeds. You can say that those are different breeds, not species. And except in the case of the mule, you are right.

Some people will only buy a pure bred dog or a pure bred horse, some will NOT buy a pure bred dog, or a pure bred horse, and some don't care so long as the dog or horse is what they are looking for. And some people will only buy a pure bred fish, and some people don't care. I know that some of you think that producing hybrids is wrong. The only argument that has any weight with me is that it might be bad for the hobby. I personally don't see how, so long as the fish are sold under the proper name. And all kinds of fish are sold under the wrong names! Other then that many people here don't like them, I have seen no real reason for them not to exist. If any of you want, feel free to tell me WHY those hybrids are so wrong to have in the hobby.

These are my opinions on the subject. But I will warn you: they are long held and examined a great deal. I am not likely to change them.[/b]
 

cyradis4

Members
Thank you for the link! That was very informative, and I can see why so many are against it, though I personally think the only good argument is the diluting the natural species. Many non-native fish get released into local habitats. Remember Snakeheads? And many fish get sold under the wrong names as well already..... And I don't know how that can be stopped, and that is probably the biggest issue.....

Just my two cents!

Amanda.
 

SteelFist

Members
Excellent illustration Matt!

Amanda, I agree that is the biggest issue. And Snakeheads are far more threatening in local waters than any FH. But all in all, these posts have presented some interesting points.

Duane
 

Sonny Disposition

Well-Known Member
Flower horns are an obvious example of hybrids. Most sword tail and mollie varieties are hybrids. And no one knows what the parent species of goldfish is (are?) And I think the beautiful showy variety of discus are also hybrids of discus species.

Thank you for the link! That was very informative, and I can see why so many are against it, though I personally think the only good argument is the diluting the natural species. Many non-native fish get released into local habitats. Remember Snakeheads? And many fish get sold under the wrong names as well already..... And I don't know how that can be stopped, and that is probably the biggest issue.....

Just my two cents!

Amanda.[/b]
 

mscichlid

Founder
The one thing that is prevelant about the discus, swordtails, and goldfish, etc is that they all remain the aforementioned and don't become something else entirely.
 
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