mchambers
Former CCA member
Well, if I ever decide to keep a salt water tank, I'll take his views and yours into account. Until then, I'll happily use my canisters. I'll sell you that box filter my wife recovered for the price of a good canister!
Does Prime Go Bad?
- Thread starter hollyfish2000
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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Well well
Does that mean you'll take the bet?
This would all seem a lot more credible if basically every source you've sited to support your position wasn't a saltwater application where everyone is averse to/loathes water changes that are routine for all of us, neh? But then there's no source more reliable than an LFS.
Off to India tomorrow - will check in Dehli to see what's being offered ere I return (may even try and bring back a bag of Badis) but expect you all to have this whole affair sorted out before I get back.
Holly: you said something about dosing with enough dechlor "for a swimming pool" or some such - you do realize that actually doing so or overdosing could make your water anoxic, yes?
Have a great meeting gang, see you in October.
Does that mean you'll take the bet?
This would all seem a lot more credible if basically every source you've sited to support your position wasn't a saltwater application where everyone is averse to/loathes water changes that are routine for all of us, neh? But then there's no source more reliable than an LFS.
Off to India tomorrow - will check in Dehli to see what's being offered ere I return (may even try and bring back a bag of Badis) but expect you all to have this whole affair sorted out before I get back.
Holly: you said something about dosing with enough dechlor "for a swimming pool" or some such - you do realize that actually doing so or overdosing could make your water anoxic, yes?
Have a great meeting gang, see you in October.
hollyfish2000
Members
Actually Sam, I do know overdosing on Prime reduces oxygen levels. That is another concern for me.
I like the pump idea. Anyone have a preference other than the link previously offered at Big Al's?
I like the pump idea. Anyone have a preference other than the link previously offered at Big Al's?
jonclark96
Past CCA President
I got my pump from Kensfish. I have both a mag pump and an ecoplus. Both work well.
Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
Becca
Members
Does that mean you'll take the bet?
Off to India tomorrow - will check in Dehli to see what's being offered ere I return (may even try and bring back a bag of Badis) but expect you all to have this whole affair sorted out before I get back.
If you get females, let me know. If you want a male and what is probably an ugly male, let me know. I have an extra "pair."
dogofwar
CCA Members
A query to the experts at Seachem:
How important is regular cleaning/changing mechanical filtration to maintaining superior water quality?
In addition to weekly partial water changes and (more frequent) siphoning of waste, I regularly (at least weekly) rinse or replace the mechanical media (fluff and/or sponges) in my filters.
I have moved away from canister filters (toward sumps w/pre-filters and air-driven boxes) because cleaning canisters takes much more time than simply rinsing and replacing fluff in a box or pre-filter.
The goal of this fastidiousness is to remove waste (uneaten food, feces, etc.) before it enters the nitrogen cycle: less waste in the system = less nitrate produced down the line, which means that dilution of nitrates (and other dissolved organics and nitrogenous waste) is that much more effective (get's me closer to zero), at least that's my theory.
Some of my buddies have told me that I'm wasting my time and that the robust biological filtration that we have reduces waste to nitrates in no time and that frequent cleaning of mechanical filtration (and gravel vacuuming) is largely for aesthetics. Many use canister filters and don't change them until the accumulation of waste slows their flow (often months). They're able to maintain manageable levels of nitrates through large water changes and use of plants.
We mostly keep cichlids, so most are not too sensitive. Both approaches yield seemingly happy, breeding cichlids!
Is a dirty (canister) filter a point source of pollution for a tank or something that's OK?
Thanks for your insight,
Matt
PS I also use a lot of Poret foam in my fishroom and, like other media, I clean (meaning siphon and dip in tap water to remove physical waste from it) regularly. My friends generally don't. Am I doing too much work?
How important is regular cleaning/changing mechanical filtration to maintaining superior water quality?
In addition to weekly partial water changes and (more frequent) siphoning of waste, I regularly (at least weekly) rinse or replace the mechanical media (fluff and/or sponges) in my filters.
I have moved away from canister filters (toward sumps w/pre-filters and air-driven boxes) because cleaning canisters takes much more time than simply rinsing and replacing fluff in a box or pre-filter.
The goal of this fastidiousness is to remove waste (uneaten food, feces, etc.) before it enters the nitrogen cycle: less waste in the system = less nitrate produced down the line, which means that dilution of nitrates (and other dissolved organics and nitrogenous waste) is that much more effective (get's me closer to zero), at least that's my theory.
Some of my buddies have told me that I'm wasting my time and that the robust biological filtration that we have reduces waste to nitrates in no time and that frequent cleaning of mechanical filtration (and gravel vacuuming) is largely for aesthetics. Many use canister filters and don't change them until the accumulation of waste slows their flow (often months). They're able to maintain manageable levels of nitrates through large water changes and use of plants.
We mostly keep cichlids, so most are not too sensitive. Both approaches yield seemingly happy, breeding cichlids!
Is a dirty (canister) filter a point source of pollution for a tank or something that's OK?
Thanks for your insight,
Matt
PS I also use a lot of Poret foam in my fishroom and, like other media, I clean (meaning siphon and dip in tap water to remove physical waste from it) regularly. My friends generally don't. Am I doing too much work?
verbal
CCA Members
It looks like fish exchange a lot of NH3 in their gills, so that will go in the water directly. So the wastes would probably be low in Nitrogen unless they have a lot of undigested protein.
I suspect the common cause of the "Nitrate bomb" canisters is uneaten food(especially with high protein content) getting into the filter.
There was a study that did indicate significant amounts of Nitrogen in (marine)Anchoives wastes. So it could also be that marine and freshwater fish deal with their wastes differently.
I suspect the common cause of the "Nitrate bomb" canisters is uneaten food(especially with high protein content) getting into the filter.
There was a study that did indicate significant amounts of Nitrogen in (marine)Anchoives wastes. So it could also be that marine and freshwater fish deal with their wastes differently.
mchambers
Former CCA member
Pretty good summary
You might want to be a little more clear that you're talking about fresh water tanks.
Also, while I respect Seachem's products, it's a company that's in the business of selling stuff, and not a neutral observer. I expect the reply will recommend the use of Purigen.
Nice write-up.
You might want to be a little more clear that you're talking about fresh water tanks.
Also, while I respect Seachem's products, it's a company that's in the business of selling stuff, and not a neutral observer. I expect the reply will recommend the use of Purigen.
Yeah for salt water, at least for reef tanks, canisters don't make sense for the reasons he said. Would be interesting to see if aggressive mechanical filtration and waste removal (say through a sump with filter socks) could really reduce NO3 in a freshwater tank.
I know when I look in my sumps they are filled with protein you can see the oil slick on the surface of hte sump water - which isn't agitated particularly aggressively given the fluid flow in the sump. No mech filter will get that and being unable to skim freshwater there isn't an easy way to get it out.
dogofwar
CCA Members
Thanks Matt - at least they don't sell canister filters
I mentioned keeping mostly cichlids...
Matt
I mentioned keeping mostly cichlids...
Matt
dogofwar
CCA Members
A buddy of mine in Wisconsin has built a DIY foam fractioner (basically a protein skimmer) for freshwater. It's got a venturi valve as a key component.
Here's a commercial product: http://www.koiacres.com/koi-acres-products/clarity.html
Matt
Here's a commercial product: http://www.koiacres.com/koi-acres-products/clarity.html
Matt
Becca
Members
The MonsterFishKeepers site has a thread or two with much heated debate about this very same topic.
I have, honestly, never had a problem with canister filters, even AFTER extended power-outages (8-10 hours). I probably clean them out every 3-8 months... it just depends on my memory/time/etc.
The filter on my parents' pond is, effectively, a canister filter filled with bio balls. I know they have not cleaned it ever - water is crystal clear, fish are healthy, the only reason anything in that pond has ever died is because my dad is too cheap to plug the dang heater in during the winter. I think he's replaced the pump and I know he frequently cleans the pre-filter, but the pond has been running non-stop for about 10 years and hardly ever gets water changes. It is under-stocked and has plants, but not loads.
I'm no expert and I'm also pretty low tech. I hadn't bothered testing my water until recently and that's only to figure out what conditions my fish are breeding under (turns out that's highly variable, of course). I don't use many additives and, honestly, will top my tanks off without dechlorinating from time to time if it's just a little top-off. I've never seen any ill-effects.
I have trouble believing that canisters are the "nitrate bombs" so many people think they are - especially with a good pre-filter in use. Sticking a nice big pre-filter on a canister is like sticking an extra sponge filter in the tank.
I have, honestly, never had a problem with canister filters, even AFTER extended power-outages (8-10 hours). I probably clean them out every 3-8 months... it just depends on my memory/time/etc.
The filter on my parents' pond is, effectively, a canister filter filled with bio balls. I know they have not cleaned it ever - water is crystal clear, fish are healthy, the only reason anything in that pond has ever died is because my dad is too cheap to plug the dang heater in during the winter. I think he's replaced the pump and I know he frequently cleans the pre-filter, but the pond has been running non-stop for about 10 years and hardly ever gets water changes. It is under-stocked and has plants, but not loads.
I'm no expert and I'm also pretty low tech. I hadn't bothered testing my water until recently and that's only to figure out what conditions my fish are breeding under (turns out that's highly variable, of course). I don't use many additives and, honestly, will top my tanks off without dechlorinating from time to time if it's just a little top-off. I've never seen any ill-effects.
I have trouble believing that canisters are the "nitrate bombs" so many people think they are - especially with a good pre-filter in use. Sticking a nice big pre-filter on a canister is like sticking an extra sponge filter in the tank.
hollyfish2000
Members
Before I order a pump, I want to make sure I have this right:
I put pump in the water in the trash can, connect the python to it and drop the other end of the python in the tank to be filled and plug it in?
Also, what size? I'm only moving 25 gallons at most in one water change.
I put pump in the water in the trash can, connect the python to it and drop the other end of the python in the tank to be filled and plug it in?
Also, what size? I'm only moving 25 gallons at most in one water change.
ltrepeter2000
Members
You have the process correct above.
You need to make sure that the pump you get fits onto the end of your hose, so it might be slightly bigger than you would normally use for 25 gallons in an aquarium. The one I posted is just an example but the Mag Drive pumps from Supreme work well, as do the Eheim (the previous example), the Aquamedic Oceanrunners should work as well. Just need to make sure the output connection can be hooked to your python hose.
http://www.bigalspets.com/fish/water-pumps-powerheads.html?cat=359&limit=48
You need to make sure that the pump you get fits onto the end of your hose, so it might be slightly bigger than you would normally use for 25 gallons in an aquarium. The one I posted is just an example but the Mag Drive pumps from Supreme work well, as do the Eheim (the previous example), the Aquamedic Oceanrunners should work as well. Just need to make sure the output connection can be hooked to your python hose.
http://www.bigalspets.com/fish/water-pumps-powerheads.html?cat=359&limit=48
hollyfish2000
Members
how do I make sure the python would fit?
jonclark96
Past CCA President
The python has a threaded connection that attaches to your faucet (probably a 3/4" female connection if I remember correctly). You need to have the ability to hook that up to the pump. Most mag pumps have them. Others will have adapters that allow the hook up.
verbal
CCA Members
I think the inner diameter is 5/8". I think it will probably work on a 1/2" threaded outlet. I know they attach to the Eheim hobby pump, but those are pretty expensive for the flow rate.
daninmd
Members
this thread seems to have gotten a little bit off topic. all the discussion about canister filters and nitrate really has nothing to do with holly's nitrite spikes. Excess nitrate has nothing to do with nitrite levels and excess deterius in the tank wont kill beneficial bacteria, causing a mini-cycle and therefore nitrites to be present.
Holly - glad you are going to try and change your water changing process, I think something in that process is causing your issues. don't overdue it on the prime, you can double/triple the dosing but that isn't necessary. In addition to the process to fill the tank, what/how are you draining it? if you are using a python, where is that stored when not in use? where are your buckets stored? I am very careful always keep those items in a clean area where there are no cleaning supplies, pesticides, etc.
Holly - glad you are going to try and change your water changing process, I think something in that process is causing your issues. don't overdue it on the prime, you can double/triple the dosing but that isn't necessary. In addition to the process to fill the tank, what/how are you draining it? if you are using a python, where is that stored when not in use? where are your buckets stored? I am very careful always keep those items in a clean area where there are no cleaning supplies, pesticides, etc.
hollyfish2000
Members
No i don't drain with a python. I have two regular siphons, and add water via dedicated water buckets. And all are stored in the infamous fish bathroom, which never gets cleaned!!
mchambers
Former CCA member
In which case you have a bit more flexibility as to the pump. Basically, you need a pump and a relatively short length of tubing to run from the pump to your aquarium.
With my (free) Maxi-Jet, I'm able to slip the water changing tubing over the input, but the tubing is bigger than the output piece, so I have a short piece of tubing on the output, and then slip the water changing tubing over that. It's a kludge, but it works.
Might be an instance where you are better off visiting the LFS than ordering, so you can get advice about specific model.
With my (free) Maxi-Jet, I'm able to slip the water changing tubing over the input, but the tubing is bigger than the output piece, so I have a short piece of tubing on the output, and then slip the water changing tubing over that. It's a kludge, but it works.
Might be an instance where you are better off visiting the LFS than ordering, so you can get advice about specific model.
