A Semi-Heated Dscussion

[blkmjk]

OK I guess I will start quick description of the problem I have spread and treated in all of my tanks. I had a 10 Gal that I had some fry die in I scooped them out and put their mother back in my 50 gal. Afterward I used the same net on all of my tanks at one point or another. Spreading the disease through out all of my tanks I treated the tanks for this "ick" like weird white growth on the eyes and body with quick cure, high temps ,and salt.
My last infected tank is in the process of clearing up now.
I guess the reason for this thread is the semi-heated discussion that me and a guy at HOT got into yesterday. When I was questioned by the clerk as to why I need a disease treatment I described my symptoms and what I was doing to resolve them. I was then asked how much water I was changing and with what frequency I was doing it. My response was that on my tanks I do a 75% change weekly. Most if not ALL of my tanks are overstocked but I go through great lengths to insure a healthy environment for my fish. I was informed that my WC schedule was too aggressive. When I disagreed with her opinion she brought over the store expert. He informed me that the changing the water that much and with that volume was causing the problems with my fish. I laughed but questioned his logic as to why he believed this to be so. He informed me that the beneficial bacteria my tank requires to process waste was getting washed out of my water during changes. Is this guy right or is the beneficial bacteria held in the filter, substrate, and on the surfaces of the tank decorations as I understood them to be contained? His opinion goes against everything I have read and come to understand about the bacteria cycle in the aquarium. And that is that the water carries the waste through and around the bacterial colonies. And that the colonies aren't floating in the water. Which is what he believed.
When I asked him why Discus keepers change 50% daily and have no issues he said we keep discus and we don't change but 50% every week. I didn't tell him that of the 15 or so Discus they had in the store that all of them were showing signs of fin burn. Black spots all over the body.
I guess I just want to make sure my understanding is correct and that I am in fact doing the right things here for the correct care of my fish.

Thanks
Drew

 

[jonclark96]

Sounds like misguided advice they were trying to give. The BB is on stuff, not in the water. I know it can be frustrating having a debate like this, but you are on the right track. I change 50%-70% of the water in my tanks with no issues.

There was a recent thread that discussed the potential for pH swings if you refill too quickly with big changes, but I have never experienced any issues if the new water is close in parameters to the old water.

 

[blkmjk]

Sounds like misguided advice they were trying to give. The BB is on stuff, not in the water. I know it can be frustrating having a debate like this, but you are on the right track. I change 50%-70% of the water in my tanks with no issues.

There was a recent thread that discussed the potential for pH swings if you refill too quickly with big changes, but I have never experienced any issues if the new water is close in parameters to the old water.

I know his intentions weren't misguided. Which is why I just dropped it. Got my stuff and got out of there.

 

[Nathan]

Water changes causing ich? lol And this isn't even petsmart.

 

[Andrewtfw]

It is possible to cause a nitrite spike by removing too much BB through thorough gravel and filter cleaning at the same time on a heavily stocked tank. That could, in turn result in bacterial or ick outbreaks.

I change 50-75% weekly and don't have a problem. If i change the canister media, i wait a few days to change water.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[hollyfish2000]

Does anyone know the owner and can have a chat? Misinformation is bad enough at Petsmart. It's inexcusable in a "reputable" LFS, of which we have painfully few left . .

 

[Charlutz]

You could also "cause" an outbreak by stressing the fish with too much of a water change if you failed to match the water temp or conditions closely. Not saying this is what you did but that it's possible. Ick and other disease agents are in all of our tanks but are held at bay by the fishes' immune systems. Sudden variation in water conditions can cause stress, in turn leading to a weakened immune system and susceptibility to disease or parasites. So while a water change wouldn't actually cause ich, a change in water conditions could ultimately result in sick fish.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[Nathan]

Its not actually, http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/ichthyophthirius

There is no "dormant" independent, long-term encysted life stage separate from a host fish for Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. This is useful to know. You will often hear to the contrary. Dr. Peter Burgess, who took Ichthyophthirius multifiliis as his Ph.D. subject at Plymouth University, mentioned among Ich "old wives' tales" that "It's present in all aquariums." "What utter rubbish" noted Dr. Burgess (in the November 2001 Practical Fishkeeping). Brits don't mince words.

 

[hollyfish2000]

The big error on the part of the LFS was that the beneficial bacteria were in the water column. If they believe this, I assume this LFS never does water changes. That's not good.

 

[Tony]

Many Asian fish farms as well as some in the United States continually change water. I believe that Live Fish Direct in Utah runs spring water 24/7 through their tanks - they say it's the equivalent to 6 water changes daily. On this sort of level though, you're bacteria will be minimal because the waste is exported quite rapidly.

Bacteria lives on the surfaces of your tank in in your filter - with a small percent floating in the water. I run 75% weekly changes on my big tanks and fry tanks. No worries.

 

[Hawkman2000]

What really puts a thorn in the side of the "BB in the water theory" is why would anyone ever use a UV sterilizer if its going to kill off ALL of your BB in the water?

 

[Nathan]

Only store "experts" can answer that.

 

[tug]

Unless a person power washes their gravel, siphon action gravel washers do not reduce the population of nitrifying bacteria to the point of temporary elevated ammonia and nitrite levels. A fluidized bed filter, continuously stirs the media to prevent clogging and they are effective biological filters.

If the bed has not been cleaned in a long time then proceed cautiously. If the tank has not been cleaned in a long time particulate material can cause a population bloom of heterotrophic bacteria that remove significant amounts of oxygen from the water resulting in stress or the death of your fish.

Personally, I don't match water conditions like pH. I've heard nitrite (possibly from a reduction in BB) is more toxic in water with a low pH and ammonium (NH4+) becomes the more toxic ammonia (NH3) in water with a high pH. But, if I don't have a lot of ammonia or nitrate to begin with, matching pH doesn't seem to matter.

Temperature, I try to match within a few degrees.

The best way to maintain a stable environment is to do regular partial water changes.

The truth is that no matter how big your aquarium or how expensive your filtration system, biological, chemical and physical processes are constantly occurring which alter the chemical balance of the water. These processes delete certain elements and compounds while concentrating others. Over time, the chemical composition of the water changes to the detriment of the fish and other aquatic organisms (such as the nitrifying bacteria). The easiest, most economical way to counter these processes is through regular partial water changes. They need to be part of the normal routine of your aquarium maintenance.

I change 50% of the tanks water every week. I've only had a bad breakout of Ich when I first started this hobby, overstocked my tank without proper filtration, added too much food for the fish, didn't quarantine new arrivals and was lazy about changing the water.

 

[mrkillie]

When I asked him why Discus keepers change 50% daily and have no issues he said we keep discus and we don't change but 50% every week.

Not to mention breeders that change 90% daily on growout tanks-sometimes 2x daily.

 

[dogofwar]

Agreed - large, regular water changes are the solution (not the problem).

Just finished doing water changes on all of the tanks in my fishroom. Some I drain nearly completely...

Matt

 

[mrkillie]

I think they get the BB in the water theory from the liquid bacteria that they sell to cycle a tank quickly. They think that once it is in the water, that is where it will stay. Whoever is propagating these notions obviously doesn't know how filters work.

 

[tug]

LFS tries to colonize a load of crap.

First, advise customers performing regular partial water changes is stressful - then try to sell an expensive brand of sodium bicarbonate to adjust the pH.

Nice article nathan. +1 for having a link on Potassium permanganate (KMnO4).
Maybe we could go to the store in question and they would let us run a test for organic pollutants from infrequent water changes.

Pretty in pink. Potassium Permanganate (pp) Calculator
http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcpp.asp

 

[blkmjk]

Thanks for all of the replies. And for the awesome reading material.

After becoming a fish fanatic I cant stop reading stuff about how to keep them. I am happy to hear that I have the right idea about keeping a healthy environment for my fish. Just wanted to back myself up with some real expert advice!

Thankyou everyone,

Drew

 

[bossanova]

While I generally agree with what most people here have said, it's worth mentioning that the OP lives in VA, where they put chloramines in the water. Adding 75% of the tank's water full of chloramines could cause trouble. Do you treat your water prior to filling the tank, or go straight in "python-style"?

 

[verbal]

While I generally agree with what most people here have said, it's worth mentioning that the OP lives in VA, where they put chloramines in the water. Adding 75% of the tank's water full of chloramines could cause trouble. Do you treat your water prior to filling the tank, or go straight in "python-style"?

Usually people add the dechlorinator to the remaining water. Sometimes I might break it up with a huge water change.