Yes ANOTHER deadly nitrite spike

[hollyfish2000]

So I recently stopped aging my water (which I started to do after a previous nitrite spike) and what greeted me this morning in my blue orchid peacock tank -- no fish swimming around. I quickly saw a few females and the baby petricola gasping in one corner. So -- just what you want to be doing before you leave for work -- I did a massive water change (which, unfortunately, including not switching buckets fast enough and getting water all over my wood floor). I also switched out one of the Fluvals for one on my other tanks, pulled three living females out and put them in the 20 gallon tank with the boy I'd pulled on Sunday, pulled one lifeless female and euthanized another female, and finally dumped in a bottle of Dr. Tim's, although I don't know how old it was. I didn't want to pull my 'emergency' sponge filter out of the 20 as I'd just added three fish to that tank. I retested and got 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite by the time I left for work, but I don't know how fast that'll rise again. Of course, I didn't feed. It looks like all six of the adult petricola and the baby survived. I decided not to try and pull them out as they hide under the rocks and it would have been a nightmare trying to get them. So it's just the cats and one male left in the tank. Also kept the level low to increase splash from the two filters.

I'm freaking out, though. This happens to me with some regularity when I don't age my water. I can only assume I'm not dechlorinating thoroughly enough, altho I think I am. I did not do a heavy gravel vac (you really can't in this tank).

I'll go home at lunch and hope for the best. I'm very upset by this.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Sorry to hear Holly. Good luck with getting the tank stable again, I know its frustrating to go through. If you need an extra male or anything let me know, otherwise I have plenty of fry growing out.

I've heard a lot of people talking about municipalities flushing the water lines with chloramine, and not all dechlors remove chloramine. I use Seachem Safe with every WC and do not age my water.

 

[dogofwar]

So sorry to hear about that, Holly!

Matt

 

[Andrewtfw]

Sorry to hear this happened again. I don't age my water and have not had this problem. I overdose on dechlor with pond prime. Maybe that helps. I don't know though.

Sent from my DROIDX

 

[hollyfish2000]

Thanks guys. Yes -- I'll probably want to be grabbing some fish from you DiscusnAfricans. Will have to see how it all shakes out. How big are your fry?

 

[jonclark96]

Bummer, Holly. Hope everyone survives.

 

[verbal]

Sorry to hear about your losses. I hope the survivors do ok. What are you using for your dechlorinator?

 

[dogofwar]

I similarly don't age water and use Cloram-X (http://www.kensfish.com/moreinfo/cloram-x.html) as my chlorine remover - a pinch per tank (larger pinch for larger tank/big water change).

I never experience nitrite or ammonia spikes (not that I test) unless I'm really remiss in maintenance (lots of un-vacuumed gunk like in a fry tank).

The presence of nitrite reflects some kind of breakdown in the nitrogen cycle - the bacteria that produce nitrate from nitrite aren't sufficient enough in quantity to keep up....or there is a excess waste being produced (and converted from ammonia to nitrite...but not nitrate).

Is there a lot of gunk in the substrate? Cleaned out the sponges on the canister lately?

The tank looked great the other day...so just trying to figure it out!

Matt

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Thanks guys. Yes -- I'll probably want to be grabbing some fish from you DiscusnAfricans. Will have to see how it all shakes out. How big are your fry?

My fry are still pretty small. I have a group of 12-15 that are closer to an inch, and about 30 or so 3/4" or smaller. You might have to fight Jim Peck for them though. I think Dave has some unsexed at 2" for a good price if thats too small. Just let me know, I'll be glad to help.

 

[hollyfish2000]

As in the past, I've used Prime (adquately, I thought), didn't open filter, had very good flow (all my tanks are over filtered; this 45 has a Fluval 405 AND 305 running on it) and I didn't overall vac the substrate. The only thing I can think of (particularly since this never happens when I age the water) is that I'm not dechlorinating sufficiently. I assume chlorine kills or severely damages the biological culture, ending in the nitrite spike.

Fortunately, when I went home for lunch to check my parameters were perfect. Go figure! Love the pretty yellow and baby blue!!!!!!!!

The male and the cats seem fine. I tried to do a head count and definitely saw five out of six and the baby.

And the three girlies in the 20 are just fine.

Back to aging water . . .

Now I'm rethinking stocking. I'll post that on a new thread.

 

[mchambers]

This is a real puzzler. When and where are you using the Prime? Are you adding it directly to the tank before adding water? If so, are you dosing for the entire tank? Maybe you should add the water more slowly?

Knowing you, I doubt you're making any mistakes, but these are the only ideas I have to offer.

 

[hollyfish2000]

I use 3 gallon buckets. I put in the Prime (two drops per gallon is the right dose, I always double or triple that) and swish, usually with the handle of a net. Then pour in one bucket at a time.

It's very perplexing.

I do the exact same thing with aged water, except it's been sitting in five gallon buckets with air stones for at least 24 hours. I thought my electric bill could use a break, so I stopped that. Plus my tub only holds four buckets at one time, so it was constraining how many tanks I could do at one time.

 

[dogofwar]

I can't imagine that it's "use error" with the Prime - add before, during or right after adding water, I've never had a problem. Add too much, just the right amount per instructions, or too little - never had a problem.

I would look to a build up of nutrients somewhere in the tank...

Matt

 

[ezrk]

If it is a NO2/Nitrite spike it seems unlikely that is the water. There shouldn't be any nitrite in teh water to begin with (the allowable specs on nitrite in tap water are virtually zero).

I would try and figure out if something is going wrong with the bio filter somehow.

 

[hollyfish2000]

Ethan -- to be clear what the probloem is. It's not about nitrite being in the tap water. It's about other things, such as chlorine, in the tap not being propery eradicated by the Prime, and thus killing off all or some of the existing bacterial colony and setting an established tank into a mini cycle. Just thought the clarification is necessary so new folks aren't confused by the issue at hand . . .

 

[mchambers]

As I've been pondering this strange problem, I've been thinking that you should start dosing Prime for the entire tank volume, just to be safe. Another idea is to turn off the filter when doing a water change, just to minimize the possibility that you're somehow killing the beneficial microbes in your filter.

As an aside, I just add Prime (or Safe, essentially powered Prime) to my tanks, with the dosage for the entire tank, and then add water directly to the tanks. I've never had a problem with the biofilter after doing this.

 

[Frank Cowherd]

Holly,
Just a couple thoughts you might be able to comment on. You did not mention temperature. If the temperature of the new water is significantly lower than the tank, the fish could act badly and most recover but maybe not all. The other thought is that tap water can be completely lacking in oxygen. You aging process would have put oxygen back into the water, but without aging and just adding dechlor you might have been adding water that would not support fish. When you put the water into a container from the tap you can easily aerate it by spraying it into the container. If it goes into the container as a solid stream of water it will not be oxygenated.

 

[ezrk]

Ethan -- to be clear what the probloem is. It's not about nitrite being in the tap water. It's about other things, such as chlorine, in the tap not being propery eradicated by the Prime, and thus killing off all or some of the existing bacterial colony and setting an established tank into a mini cycle. Just thought the clarification is necessary so new folks aren't confused by the issue at hand . . .

Yeah but it seems odd that you don't see ammonia either. Granted ammonia eating bugs reproduce faster than nitrite eaters, but if you are getting fish killing spikes it seems like you should see ammonia as well.

Maybe check with your water authority and find out what they are putting in the water? I also agree with the advice to treat the whole tank volume with Prime. At those levels it should be safe, pretty hard to OD Prime/Safe/Etc.

 

[dogofwar]

Holly and Tony are probably 1/2 mile apart (as the crow flies) so they are most likely receiving the same tap.

Matt

 

[chriscoli]

Just to add my two cents-worth here...I'm not sure it'll help your situation, but here it is nonetheless.

The bacteria in aquarium filters (and gravel, and other surfaces of the tank) are living as a biofilm...versus living as free-floating bacteria in the water column (which are there, too, just usually in lower numbers). When bacteria are in a biofilm state, in general, they undergo some pretty drastic physiological changes that make them much more resistant to antimicrobials (antibiotics, sanitizers, etc.) than their cousins are in the water column. This is a reversible state such that if an established biofilm gives off free-floating bacteria to go colonize elsewhere, they become susceptible until they settle down again.

Even on food-contact surfaces, the industrial sanitizers that are used often won't affect more than just the surface of a happy biofilm unless you physically remove it (by scrubbing) and allowing the sanitizer to sit on it and have decent contact time with the microbes.

Bacteria are hardy little buggers. I regularly do large water changes AND vacuum the gravel AND clean my canister filter all at the same time. And, (I know I'm going to get harassed for this) I never rinse my sponges in tank water....I use tap water <gasp>. Now, I'm not trying to say that everyone should do this...I think it's situation dependent (if it aint broke, don't fix it). Also, if I plan well enough, I try to alternate between cleaning sponges and the canisters so that just in case I do some major harm, I've got backup still functioning till the other recovers. Yes, I am killing a lot of bacteria in my filter when I do this, but there are a lot still in there to continue on. Aging biofilms go through their own refresh process as well...parts will slough away from the surface, giving it a chance to re-grow.

That being said, I think that it is possible to do things that really harm your biofilm, and not all biofilms are made up of the same bacterial species or strains. What works for me now may not work for me next month if the city alters my tap water parameters, and may not work for you at all.