Spawning WC cichlids from different collection points

[TMSB805]

I'd like to get a few opinions on the subject. Does any feel that its an issue with spawning cichlids from different collection points? Example: spawning F0 Cichlid from point A with another F0 Cichlid from point B.

What do you label the offspring?

 

[blkmjk]

This is a hotly debated subject with the umbee guys.

Case in point a magnum - x umbee. Father is a F0 male from Lake Guatape mother is F0 Rio Magdelena the fish are identified as something different than F1 because they are not a wild self propigating population.

I know they are both a blue freckled umbee variant but they are subtly different.

Tough question though. Definitely worth debating.

Drew

 

[TMSB805]

Thanks for your input Drew. So then my next question would be what if there isn't any physical variations (spots, body shape, color)?

The fish in question are Astatheros Rostratus. I have some wild ones from Rio Grande De Matagalpa, Nicaragua and the other is San Francisco Libre "Managua" Nicaragua

 

[dogofwar]

In my opinion, it depends.

Every collection point doesn't necessarily have a variant of fish that's different than another collection point. Someone has just given the two locations different names (for example, on the same river). Some fish are widely distributed and relatively homogeneous. Some are quite different from location to location.

I think that the Rio Blanco / Rio Copan Red Tiger Motaguense (or the various Hericthys carpintis variants from Veracruz, Mexico) are perfect examples of many names, same fish. I understand why they have different names...but at the end of the day, they're the same gene pool of fish.... and breeding them together is something that could occur in nature.

It also depends on what the purpose of breeding the fish is. If you're looking to create a fancy fish, then go ahead and mix whatever you want. Just realize (and label) that it is what it is.

If you seek to maintain as-authentic-as-possible populations of wild-type fish, you should only breed fish of similar populations/variants.

Matt

 

[jonclark96]

Personally, I would do my best to keep the variants separate. If it came down to a situation where I couldn't, either because you don't have a pair from one locale or the like, I'd mix the locales and call them a tank raised strain, especially with a fairly rare fish like rostratus.

 

[dogofwar]

I'd ask Jeff and check out where they are on a map.

The Rio Grande de Mategalpa fish I've gotten from Jeff are more riverine than the Lago Nicaragua ones (lake fish).

Matt

Thanks for your input Drew. So then my next question would be what if there isn't any physical variations (spots, body shape, color)?

The fish in question are Astatheros Rostratus. I have some wild ones from Rio Grande De Matagalpa, Nicaragua and the other is San Francisco Libre "Managua" Nicaragua

 

[Shawnc]

So to net it out, you are talking about the same species from two completely different biotypes. As was said, they may just be a widely distributed species but the fastest path to speciation (the creation of distinct subspecies) is adaptation to differences in environment. When I think of the Western African cichlids that are found on opposite sides of the congo river, those color and other differences have resulted by a physical separation within the same river. With Apistos it is even mire extreme the color morphs and eventual complexes of related subspecies.

My personal inclination is to keep them separate, just so you can see what the differences are as they spawn and grow out. The only other thing that could tip the scales in favor of mixing locales is that both are their locales will be massively affected when the canal goes in right near where they are located. While that wont happen for a few years, someday people will wish they had collected more fish in Panama before the canal and belo monte before the dam.

 

[YSS]

As long as the origin of parents are clearly labeled, this is non-issue.

 

[TMSB805]

Matt,

I was checking the map to see if Rio Grande de Mategalpa drained into Managua and from the looks of it, it doesn't or at least not that i could see. It may be possible that one of the rivers that run off of Mategalpa may drain into it but i'll have to double check.

I will email Jeff to see if has any details.

 

[jonclark96]

Or come talk to him at AquaMania.

 

[Andrewtfw]

Or come talk to him at AquaMania.

+1

 

[TMSB805]

So after getting the new rostratus home and in the tank with the others immediately saw the differences.

Rio Grande De Matagalpa, Nicaragua: More yellow, streamlined body

San Francisco Libre "Managua" Nicaragua: More greenish yellow, taller body

So now I'm trying to decide if I want to sell it or just buy some more from Jeff. Being limited on tank space is an issue plus it turns out I possibly picked up some rare gems on a gamble at AM that'll need their own tank eventually.

 

[dogofwar]

The Rio Grande de Matagalpa A. centrarchus re similarly more streamlined (and yellow) than the lake populations.

Matt

So after getting the new rostratus home and in the tank with the others immediately saw the differences.

Rio Grande De Matagalpa, Nicaragua: More yellow, streamlined body

San Francisco Libre "Managua" Nicaragua: More greenish yellow, taller body

So now I'm trying to decide if I want to sell it or just buy some more from Jeff. Being limited on tank space is an issue plus it turns out I possibly picked up some rare gems on a gamble at AM that'll need their own tank eventually.