Male Only Parental Cichlids?

[Sonny Disposition]

Hi all. I'm revamping the sunfish talk again for another group. (I got way more mileage out of that talk than I ever thought I would have!)

Anyway, the beginning of the talk compares sunfish to cichlids. It occurred to me: are there any cichlid species in which only the male guards the eggs and tends the fry? I couldn't think of any, but thought I would check with people who have a lot more cichxperience than I do.

Offhand, all the cichlids I can think of are either bi parental (to one degree or another) or else mouthbrooders.

So...Sarah and the rest of you extremely knowledgeable cichlid folk: can you name any guardian male cichlid species?

Thanks.

 

[longstocking]

None that I can think of from Lake Tang. or Malawi.

Maybe someone else knows of a New World that does. I'm of no use in that area

Plecos do Male has to do the dirty work ! Maybe that's why I starting keeping more of them

 

[Julie]

Interesting article... a fish that can do it all three ways... bi-parental, and both ways of uni-parental.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/1....1997.tb01365.x

 

[Sonny Disposition]

Wow that's really interesting. Thanks, Julie. Mouth brooding males were not something I ever considered. I see that I have to ask the question again.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Julie @ May 7 2008, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Interesting article... a fish that can do it all three ways... bi-parental, and both ways of uni-parental.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/1....1997.tb01365.x[/b]

 

[dogofwar]

When people (who don't know about fish) ask me what a cichlid is, I tell them that a cichlid is kind of like an African, Central or South American sunfish (something to which they can relate).

I realize that sunfish and cichlids aren't taxonomically close, but sunfish and some cichlids share the same "niche" in their respective ecosystems. That both groups of fish have evolved to support a strategy of parental care for a relatively small number of babies vs. randomly scattering a huge number of eggs represents evolution at work.

The extreme specialization that different cichlid species (and different populations within the same cichlid species) have developed different reproduction (and feeding) strategies (substrate spawner, mouth breeder, combination of both, etc.) represents further adaptation. When the Rift lakes were formed, cichlids were really successful in adapting to the new environments.

Something that I would find really interesting is to see how reproductive capabilities differ between different (but closely related) sunfish species and populations. Why or why aren't they as variable as cichlids? Why aren't they as adaptable to different conditions? For example, why were cichlids able to tolerate salt water enough to establish themselves in Cuba, Haiti, etc... but sunfish weren't?

As an aside, don't stickleback males also exclusively defend their babies?

 

[phishphorphun]

Without pretending that I know what I'm talking about...because I seldom do. I remember I had a customer that had his master's in marine biology. When I told him I kept African Cichlids as a hobby, his immediate reaction was this..."Cichlids, the only fish that has proven to beat extinction. When left to continue to propagate, they changed their sex to do so." I guess that is pretty impressive when a species can change it's reproductive organs to survive.

 

[dogofwar]

There's a hermaphroditic killifish as well. Fundulus mormoratus?



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phishphorphun @ May 7 2008, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Without pretending that I know what I'm talking about...because I seldom do. I remember I had a customer that had his master's in marine biology. When I told him I kept African Cichlids as a hobby, his immediate reaction was this..."Cichlids, the only fish that has proven to beat extinction. When left to continue to propagate, they changed their sex to do so." I guess that is pretty impressive when a species can change it's reproductive organs to survive. [/b]

 

[Charlutz]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phishphorphun @ May 7 2008, 06:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Without pretending that I know what I'm talking about...because I seldom do. I remember I had a customer that had his master's in marine biology. When I told him I kept African Cichlids as a hobby, his immediate reaction was this..."Cichlids, the only fish that has proven to beat extinction. When left to continue to propagate, they changed their sex to do so." I guess that is pretty impressive when a species can change it's reproductive organs to survive. [/b]

I think that theory has been debunked but it still carries on through word of mouth. From what I can find, there was a report from the late 1800's citing it in the Mozambique mouthbrooder (I forget the latin name), but that's it. I've had female peacocks and mbuna (had previously spawned and spit fry) that have taken on nearly full male colors and aggression levels, as I suspect many people have, but they never "fathered" a spawn. I don't think anyone's ever had a documented case of a cichlid spawning ... er ... both ways.

 

[mscichlid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonny Disposition @ May 7 2008, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Anyway, the beginning of the talk compares sunfish to cichlids. It occurred to me: are there any cichlid species in which only the male guards the eggs and tends the fry? [/b]

 

[Sonny Disposition]

I'm going to cover some of this in my slide show in June. Cichlids are way more diverse than sunfish. I don't know for sure, but I think that's because until recently in geologic history, much of North America was underneath glaciers, and Africa and South America were not. So cichlids have probably had a longer time to differentiate into different species.

I don't know about the geology of the Caribean. I'm guessing that when lots of water was locked up in glaciers in North America and Europe, many of the caribean islands were connected by land, so brackish fish-to-fresh water fish like livebearers and cichlids probably spread out from the mainland.

I don't know why there aren't any marine centrarchids. Although some some sunnies will tolerate brackish water. I've collected pumpkinseeds in Graysonville, not too far from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

RE: Male parental care, centrarchids and sticklebacks aren't alone. Darters, sculpins and even one minnow genus also practices male parental care. Whether they're guarding just the eggs or eggs and fry is debatable.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dogofwar @ May 7 2008, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

When people (who don't know about fish) ask me what a cichlid is, I tell them that a cichlid is kind of like an African, Central or South American sunfish (something to which they can relate).

I realize that sunfish and cichlids aren't taxonomically close, but sunfish and some cichlids share the same "niche" in their respective ecosystems. That both groups of fish have evolved to support a strategy of parental care for a relatively small number of babies vs. randomly scattering a huge number of eggs represents evolution at work.

The extreme specialization that different cichlid species (and different populations within the same cichlid species) have developed different reproduction (and feeding) strategies (substrate spawner, mouth breeder, combination of both, etc.) represents further adaptation. When the Rift lakes were formed, cichlids were really successful in adapting to the new environments.

Something that I would find really interesting is to see how reproductive capabilities differ between different (but closely related) sunfish species and populations. Why or why aren't they as variable as cichlids? Why aren't they as adaptable to different conditions? For example, why were cichlids able to tolerate salt water enough to establish themselves in Cuba, Haiti, etc... but sunfish weren't?

As an aside, don't stickleback males also exclusively defend their babies?[/b]

 

[dogofwar]

As I remember there's a great discussion of how cichlids got to "the islands" from the mainland in a TFH book (by Paul Loiselle?) on Central American Cichlids. I have a copy from circa 1989 somewhere

Matt




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonny Disposition @ May 8 2008, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I'm going to cover some of this in my slide show in June. Cichlids are way more diverse than sunfish. I don't know for sure, but I think that's because until recently in geologic history, much of North America was underneath glaciers, and Africa and South America were not. So cichlids have probably had a longer time to differentiate into different species.

I don't know about the geology of the Caribean. I'm guessing that when lots of water was locked up in glaciers in North America and Europe, many of the caribean islands were connected by land, so brackish fish-to-fresh water fish like livebearers and cichlids probably spread out from the mainland.

I don't know why there aren't any marine centrarchids. Although some some sunnies will tolerate brackish water. I've collected pumpkinseeds in Graysonville, not too far from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

RE: Male parental care, centrarchids and sticklebacks aren't alone. Darters, sculpins and even one minnow genus also practices male parental care. Whether they're guarding just the eggs or eggs and fry is debatable.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dogofwar @ May 7 2008, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When people (who don't know about fish) ask me what a cichlid is, I tell them that a cichlid is kind of like an African, Central or South American sunfish (something to which they can relate).

I realize that sunfish and cichlids aren't taxonomically close, but sunfish and some cichlids share the same "niche" in their respective ecosystems. That both groups of fish have evolved to support a strategy of parental care for a relatively small number of babies vs. randomly scattering a huge number of eggs represents evolution at work.

The extreme specialization that different cichlid species (and different populations within the same cichlid species) have developed different reproduction (and feeding) strategies (substrate spawner, mouth breeder, combination of both, etc.) represents further adaptation. When the Rift lakes were formed, cichlids were really successful in adapting to the new environments.

Something that I would find really interesting is to see how reproductive capabilities differ between different (but closely related) sunfish species and populations. Why or why aren't they as variable as cichlids? Why aren't they as adaptable to different conditions? For example, why were cichlids able to tolerate salt water enough to establish themselves in Cuba, Haiti, etc... but sunfish weren't?

As an aside, don't stickleback males also exclusively defend their babies?[/b]

[/b][/quote]

 

[Sonny Disposition]

Don't just leave us hanging, Matt. How did they get to the islands? (I don't have the book.)

As I remember there's a great discussion of how cichlids got to "the islands" from the mainland in a TFH book (by Paul Loiselle?) on Central American Cichlids. I have a copy from circa 1989 somewhere

Matt

 

[dogofwar]

I'll have to track the book down, but (as I remember) because of plate techtonics the islands were closer to the mainland and a salt water tolerant cichlid (Vieja maculicauda or black belt...again as I remember) was able to venture out. The island species adapted and evolved from this source species.

I read (different book) somewhere that Lake Victoria was colonized in a similar way: a couple of souce species (Astatotilapia nubila and another?) entered the "new" lake and began to evolve...



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dogofwar @ May 8 2008, 04:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

As I remember there's a great discussion of how cichlids got to "the islands" from the mainland in a TFH book (by Paul Loiselle?) on Central American Cichlids. I have a copy from circa 1989 somewhere

Matt




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sonny Disposition @ May 8 2008, 02:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm going to cover some of this in my slide show in June. Cichlids are way more diverse than sunfish. I don't know for sure, but I think that's because until recently in geologic history, much of North America was underneath glaciers, and Africa and South America were not. So cichlids have probably had a longer time to differentiate into different species.

I don't know about the geology of the Caribean. I'm guessing that when lots of water was locked up in glaciers in North America and Europe, many of the caribean islands were connected by land, so brackish fish-to-fresh water fish like livebearers and cichlids probably spread out from the mainland.

I don't know why there aren't any marine centrarchids. Although some some sunnies will tolerate brackish water. I've collected pumpkinseeds in Graysonville, not too far from the Chesapeake Bay Bridge.

RE: Male parental care, centrarchids and sticklebacks aren't alone. Darters, sculpins and even one minnow genus also practices male parental care. Whether they're guarding just the eggs or eggs and fry is debatable.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dogofwar @ May 7 2008, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When people (who don't know about fish) ask me what a cichlid is, I tell them that a cichlid is kind of like an African, Central or South American sunfish (something to which they can relate).

I realize that sunfish and cichlids aren't taxonomically close, but sunfish and some cichlids share the same "niche" in their respective ecosystems. That both groups of fish have evolved to support a strategy of parental care for a relatively small number of babies vs. randomly scattering a huge number of eggs represents evolution at work.

The extreme specialization that different cichlid species (and different populations within the same cichlid species) have developed different reproduction (and feeding) strategies (substrate spawner, mouth breeder, combination of both, etc.) represents further adaptation. When the Rift lakes were formed, cichlids were really successful in adapting to the new environments.

Something that I would find really interesting is to see how reproductive capabilities differ between different (but closely related) sunfish species and populations. Why or why aren't they as variable as cichlids? Why aren't they as adaptable to different conditions? For example, why were cichlids able to tolerate salt water enough to establish themselves in Cuba, Haiti, etc... but sunfish weren't?

As an aside, don't stickleback males also exclusively defend their babies?[/b]

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