Bristlenose Pleco Mutts

[tremper]

So I've a pair of BN's that breed regularly.

She's a long fin, more black than brown with a lot of small white spots. He's a short fin, brown with larger tan spots.

In the past 6 broods together they've thrown the following fry types:

- A few browns, most with large spots, a few long fin, mostly short fin
- Many more blacks, most with large spots, most short fin, a few REALLY nice long fin

The albinos are either:
- Yellowish with large spots, mostly short fin with a few long fin AND
- Pure white (my favorites), only 10 or so of these and only one or 2 LF. These seem to be the most fragile as most do not survive

Last night I emptied ed the fry cave and found many more albinos than usual, perhaps 25% if not 50% Upon closer inspection, the albinos are actually either a calico or a salt and pepper combo of yellow and black (only 1-2 weeks at this point but I've never seen this combo.

All of the fry seem to have the "silver tip / white tip / tan tip characterisitcs on the tail and dorsal fins.

Long story short, these guys are capable of quite the range of fry. Awesome!

If anyone has a semi decent genetic explanation it would be appreciated. I've read a few write ups on pleco genetics but fry expectations seem consistent with regard to types of fry that can be expected. I never know what is going to pop out.

On a separate note:
Any validity to the claim that if I line breed 3 generations of albinos that then all of their fry will ALWAYS be albino?

What about LF versu SF in a line breeding experiment. Aren't LF's the dominant variant?

 

[zackcrack00]

Albino being recessive, it seems both parents each carry the gene. Theoretically, 25% of the spawn should be albino.

It has been proposed that the eggs carrying albino fry are more likely to fungus, rot, die, etc. What could have happened was that the male wasn't caring for the eggs properly up until this recent spawn, which would result in more albino eggs surviving to hatch.

In regard to the long-finned offspring, the LF gene is dominant. Short finned (sf) only shows when the fish has two copies/doses because of its recessive characteristic to the LF gene. Therefore, your male can only have two sf genes as his genotype. If your female had two LF genes, every single baby would have one LF gene and one sf gene (therefore long-finned) No question. But, however, if your female has (which it sounds she does) one LF and one sf gene, 50% of the offspring should be LF/sf, being long-finned, and 50% should be sf/sf, your short-finned fish.

I don't know about the other characteristics you're describing, but I hope this helped.


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[tremper]

That was helpful Zack AND typed on a phone so even more impressive. I appreciate the input.

I'll have to take a closer look at the next batch of fry. Perhaps I'll grow them all out as a group and do a head count.

What I'm curious about is where in the world did the salt & pepper /calico come from on the albinos (some of them only mind you) ....?

 

[hollyfish2000]

I have never gotten anything but albino long fins from albino long fins parents. No variation.

I do have three long finned black BNs. I got them at AquaMania. They are really cool and look almost like gold nuggest plecos with their spots. I'm very curious about what will happen if I get my big boy albino to make babies with one of the black ones.

 

[Jt731]

Well, something else to remember, Mendel (the box with 4 spaces) is a gross simplification of how genetics works and most of his laws have been disproven, or rather things like genetic traits can involve sexes have shown that his laws were too simple.

Do the albinos have albino eyes? Also, do the calico keep the coloration after they mature to adults?

 

[festaedan]

Albino being recessive, it seems both parents each carry the gene. Theoretically, 25% of the spawn should be albino.

It has been proposed that the eggs carrying albino fry are more likely to fungus, rot, die, etc. What could have happened was that the male wasn't caring for the eggs properly up until this recent spawn, which would result in more albino eggs surviving to hatch.

In regard to the long-finned offspring, the LF gene is dominant. Short finned (sf) only shows when the fish has two copies/doses because of its recessive characteristic to the LF gene. Therefore, your male can only have two sf genes as his genotype. If your female had two LF genes, every single baby would have one LF gene and one sf gene (therefore long-finned) No question. But, however, if your female has (which it sounds she does) one LF and one sf gene, 50% of the offspring should be LF/sf, being long-finned, and 50% should be sf/sf, your short-finned fish.

I don't know about the other characteristics you're describing, but I hope this helped.


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I studied this last year and I couldnt have said it better my self.
Any pics of the pure white ones?

 

[tremper]

JT,

The albinos eyes are indeed pink/red. Any input on why there is a yellow and a true white phase? Just curious.

On the calico's, they're only a week old so only time will tell. That said, None of the fry from the other batches have had any mottling.

 

[tremper]

Best I could do.....

In the group of 3: left to right: "calico / salt & pepper / yellow / white
In the group of 5: left to right. calico / 3 yellow / white on top

The ones I'm identifying as white are truly white. I've seen them before as adults, pure white versus the "yellow" albino. I had one that was pretty much translucent but I think I lost him along the way.

 

[chriscoli]

I've seen the white ones, too, but as you've noted, they are fragile. I've never raised one to adulthood.

 

[chriscoli]

Well, something else to remember, Mendel (the box with 4 spaces) is a gross simplification of how genetics works and most of his laws have been disproven, or rather things like genetic traits can involve sexes have shown that his laws were too simple.

Do the albinos have albino eyes? Also, do the calico keep the coloration after they mature to adults?

I agree that we've come to realize that there's much more to genetics than Mendel originally thought, but the concept is still a good place to start. Especially with these traits where it does explain a lot of what's going on. A quick google for "Punnett square" will show how to draw the relationships. It works if you're trying to figure out albinos vs. brown or longfin vs short fin. It falls apar when you ask how long the fins are.....or how true an albino.

Also, tremor, keep in mind that brown plecos are dark colored because of melanin production. There's also a second pigment, xanthin, that causes yellow coloration. Both are usually present to some degree in Wild-type fish.

An interesting thread on pigment terminology: http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4207

 

[Boeboe]

I know this is an old thread, but I hope I still can get some help.
I have 9 adult Snow White BN, and I have similar L144 longfin. (Both are homozygot)
What I want is to make some Snow White longfin, witch are ending up homozygot.
My question is, how I easist do that?
After my opinion should both Logfin gene, and White gene be dominant, and the parents are borth Homozygot
I know, I have to cross breed them first time, and then breed them back to the parents.. But how do I easist find those witch are homozygot then..