Bad News, What Is The Cause?

[SF_Beast]

:angry: Well in the past week I have lost over half of my Cichlids. Pretty mad to say the least. It all started after all the storms and rain. I had all kids of ater around my tank, and I wasn't sure if it was coming from the tank, or the slidding glass door next to it. So I looked under the tank and could see no water in the stand. I pulled the Mega flow sump model four out, and low and behold there was a leak. It had soaked through the 3/4 in plywood at the bottom and all into the carpet. I moved the tank (180g) to the other side of the room and started over. I went to a LFS and picked up a FX5. I was told that it would be ok and the water condition would be fine due to bacteria on the substrate. Well after filling the tank back up and adding water conditioner I wited untill the next day to add the fish back to te tank. They were fine untill abouty an hour in. They all startedto swim to the top as if they were gasping for air. Ther was no rotten egg smell coming from the tank. I lost a couple of fish and did a water change. They were fine untill the next day. Around noon Ife the fish and right after that they all did the same thing. They swam to the top of the tank. This time I lot ten within a couple of minutes. I tested the water and the Nitrate was 5ppm, Nitrite wa 1ppm, ph was 7.2, and Ammo was 0. I pulled all the fish out and they are now in my neighbor's tank untill I can figure out wht is going on. I have done a few water changes and did a water test today. oule checked Nitrate because it was 0ppm, Nitrite was 0pm, Ammo was 0pm, and ph is around 8. Is the tank cycling again? I know the test kit is good, but I have never een levels like this...

Some info...

1. Carbon, Old bio balls from the sump, and ceramic were aded to the FX5.

2. Water cnditioner was added during each water change.

3. THE sand substrate was turned during each water change.

Any ideas?

 

[cyradis4]

It sounds like a dissolved oxygen problem to me. If I were you, I would get an O2 test kit. Basically, the easiest way to solve an O2 deficiency heavy (and I mean HEAVY) aeration. Particularly, the top of the tank needs to be agitated. Kinda like the ocean on a windy day.......

Do that for a while, and see what happens.

Amanda.

 

[SF_Beast]

I've also got a power head that's pretty much blowing a high volume of bubbles in the center of the tank. Will that help at all?

 

[animicrazy]

Water chemistry is complicated. We (me and Amanda) live in Baltimore city and the tap water varies considerably; drought and heavy rain tend to swing the parameters: Ph can read from 7.2 - 8.0 +; dissolved O2 has at times been unreadable on the low end by the test kit (verified with a new kit), dGH can range from 5 to 27, dKH usually 3 to 5 degrees. Summation: The water sucks. I now use two stage particulate filtration down to 5 microns (adding a third stage soon to 1 - 2 microns), then a carbon bed cartridge (adding a second one soon), then a UV sterilizer rated at 1500gph for 99% kill that I run at 150gph max - the water feeds into vats for heating and adjustments according to the type of fish getting the water. Last, but not least, Heavy aeration!!

Recently the tap water grew a weird fuzzy white type of fluff that existed at all levels in the water column - hence the home filtration system. Last week the water came out of the tap brown: refused to put that through the system - also made me sick for a couple of days (dank some before noticing).

Also, as I'm sure you know, a drastic shift in water can stress fish which can and will cause parasites to get out of control and then secondary bacterial infection.

In my experience (for what it's worth) when fish are staring at the top of the tank they either want out (aggression) or they need air. Nitrite will inhibit the ability of the fish's blood to absorb oxygen so you can have plenty of dissolved O2 and it won't matter. Sea salt will quickly fix that in an emergency (ion exchange).

Also, excessive disturbance of a thick sand (or other) substrate can release nitrogen as well as trapped waste that will cause consumption of O2 as the beneficial bacteria process the waste. Carbon will, when you least want, become saturated and release what it absorbed back into the water. I (what works for me) only use carbon in a filter if there is a specific reason - remove meds, clear "stuff", etc - it is removed and discarded after no more then a couple of days; and almost all of my regular filtration is via air powered sponge filters, so carbon is only 'as needed'.

Hope things take a turn for the better!! Keep us posted.

TMS

 

[Spine]

I agree with animilcrazy don't disturb the substrate if you can avoid it.
Also in an emergency situation you can use Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2).

You can buy the 3% solution anywhere grocery stores, pharmacy's etc.
If you decide to use Hydrogen peroxide. First,find good instructions on usage that you can trust and DON"T OVERDOSE.
Hydrogen peroxide works well to oxygenate your water but if abused it can kill your fish too.
Here's a link that should get you started. You can check some of the pro angler sites for info also.



http://theaquariumwiki.com/Hydrogen_peroxide

 

[Pat Kelly]

While I vacuum my gravel, I agree that disturbing too much can harm things.
When I moved my 90 from my old family room, I took out the gravel.
An hour later put it back in, filled the tank and put fish back in. I had saved 20 gallons of water from prior. Fish looked great for 2 days then 50% dead. I checked water and it seemed fine but smelled bad. I did a water change and for the next couple days, all fine. Then another 50% of the remaining fish were dead on the 4th day. I again checked for amonia and such but all seemed good.
I now will not put the fish in a tank that has had a major move without cycling again. I even had both filters on it. Never cleaned them until after the first dye off. Figured all the good bacteria was still in there. Oh well. thats what I get for thinking.

 

[mscichlid]

If you are not growing plants, why have more than an inch or less of sand or gravel?

 

[dogofwar]

I agree with Francine - Less is truly more with gravel (for those like me who can't grow plants I only keep a couple of handfuls of sand in each of my tanks. It's easy to clean but gives the fish something to "dig".

That there is nitrIte means that the bacteria are not sufficient to convert ammonia to nitrate. In other words, things aren't completely cycled.

For aeration, I'm a big fan of air pumps and box and sponge filters. Cheap and easy.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mscichlid @ May 21 2008, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

If you are not growing plants, why have more than an inch or less of sand or gravel?[/b]

 

[animicrazy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dogofwar @ May 21 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I agree with Francine - Less is truly more with gravel (for those like me who can't grow plants I only keep a couple of handfuls of sand in each of my tanks. It's easy to clean but gives the fish something to "dig".

That there is nitrIte means that the bacteria are not sufficient to convert ammonia to nitrate. In other words, things aren't completely cycled.

For aeration, I'm a big fan of air pumps and box and sponge filters. Cheap and easy.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mscichlid @ May 21 2008, 12:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are not growing plants, why have more than an inch or less of sand or gravel?[/b]

[/b][/quote]

(Please pardon my anal retentive tendencies): Waste - Ammonia - Nitrite - Nitrate. Ammonia at and above 7.0Ph is deadly, in acidic Ph's it is MOSTLY in a different form that is not harmful to fish (this is a gross generality - ammonia, free and bound, - are not only sensitive to Ph but also to temperature; at lower Ph's free ammonia is extremely lethal in smaller concentrations. (have a great article somewhere on the topic and will post later). Nitrite, as stated is VERY bad. Nitrate is only a problem in relatively much higher concentrations (probably somewhat species dependent).

I agree with Francine - thick sand/gravel beds are a problem waiting to happen (IMO); we only use enough to cover the bottom - 1/4 inch at most - plants go in pots (my apologizes to you GWAPA folks but I need glasses to see your fish!!!)

The bottom line: Been there, lost fish, etc. When you are having massive die offs time counts in a big way. In the time it takes to go to the grocery store a tank can crash and all the fish can die. I have put Africans in SA American tanks to save them - buckets as well with fresh water - and even 98% water changes straight from the tap (with Aquascience Ultimate) added as the tank filled. The fish weren't thrilled, but lying on their side for a minute or two sure beat dying!!! I'd put then in the toilet for spell if I had to - especially Africans.

My humble opinion is that a lot of common practices in tank set ups have been passed down through the eons and they are just plain wrong. I have learned this all the hard way - still doesn't mean I am right - just what works for me. I have 70+ tanks working, about 150 or so waiting, fish from places I can't pronounce, breeding happening at a frightening pace, so I can't afford the time for "solved problems". Yet, I still **** up. I am, after all, possibly human.

TMS.

PS: As per Pat's post - use your nose!!! - sweet smell is aerobic (good), foul smell is anaerobic (bad) - bacterial activity. If you smell the latter - get your fish out right away!!

 

[SubMariner]

Wow Paul, I must admit that I am always learning something from you. You are without a doubt a Scientist and a Mad one (LOCO) at that, but we love ya here at the club.

We need a valuable source like yourself to talk too( pick your brain) when ever we can't come up with a solution,leave it to TMS. I'm only being nice because your birthday is an about 1 hour an a half

And of course Amanda is amazing too.

SubMariner

 

[SF_Beast]

Good stuff from all, I still have all the fish in my neighbors tank. They are all doing well, and haven't killed any of his yet. I'm still trying to let my tank cycle for a little while just to get levels right. Good info to keep in mind though. Something I don't want to have to go through again...

 

[SubMariner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SF_Beast @ May 24 2008, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Good stuff from all, I still have all the fish in my neighbors tank. They are all doing well, and haven't killed any of his yet. I'm still trying to let my tank cycle for a little while just to get levels right. Good info to keep in mind though. Something I don't want to have to go through again...[/b]

That's why I always say to everyone who has a problem with a tank or with parasites and ick, GET THEM OUT OF THERE AND INTO TO ANOTHER TANK IMMEDIATELY. IT REALLY HELPS. THEN YOU CAN TREAT EFFECTIVELY. The only way you can attack against Parasites and Problems with Tank Syndromes like what you're going through is to act immediately, otherwise you're cooked.

For instance, I recently noticed one of my fish in my 29 gallon tank had signs of ick and some of the other fish were begining to scratch. So I immediately attacked the tank with Copper and I did not have to take out the fish. Within 4 days the ick was gone and my Africans were cured. You have to move swiftly.

In other words, if you see signs of ick move fast and hit them with copper, if you blink then it's too late and you'll lose half your fish. SF BEAST, what you went through DUDE is aweful, I'm really sorry to hear that, but don't give up and really take the Expert advice of this forum (CCA). Learn from what happenend and move on, trust me I lost a bunch a fish that I cared for very much, but you've got to move on. What Animicrazy and MsChild said is on target. It is so important to cycle the tank, always.

Take care,


SubMariner

 

[Fishfreak69]

Well it sounds like 2 things actually:

1) When you moved the substrate around you put decomposed particles in the water resulting in a decrease in oxygen saturation within the water. The rotten smell was actually "gas" from decomposed waste matter from within your tank (fish feces, decaying food, etc.) escaping from the air pockets within the substrate. I use about 1-1.5" of substrate in my tanks but I vacuum once a month so the bubbles don't build up and have a catastrophic event like this one.

2) New tank syndrome. Since the water was already in a "foul" state, you didn't really have enough of beneficial bacteria to jump start the tank again. Usually what I do with "new" tanks is either go to a wet dry sump and take the filter pad and squeeze into the water or take one of my FX5's and dump ALL of the water in the canister into the tank. The other option is to ALWAYS have Nitromax on hand. This chemical has 750,000 cultured LIVE bacteria in it. I usually use this or my other way and the tank is cycled within 24 hours.

When you fish are diseased, I do agree with Submariner that you have to act in a timely manner b/c each hour you wait the bacteria, parasite, or fungi is rapidly reproducing to where the fishes immune system cannot keep up and eventually will lead to a systemic infection ultimately resulting in impending death.

Usually with Ich this is what I would do:
1 cup of Salt (Diamond Crystal Solar Salt) per 100g or get the salinity up to about 4-6ppm. The salt alone will kill the spores that have been released in the water. If I still see ich on the fish, I will rinse the fish off with tank water by putting a pump and hose in the tank and running the water across the fish while gently removing the cysts in a bucket. You can use copper, however, chelated copper is probably the best b/c it is much more stable with other chemicals. If you use straight up copper you have the tendency to accidentally over treat the tank b/c some of the copper test kits will read at lower levels resulting in an overdose. I am a big fan of Formalin and Aquari-Sol. These 2 things if used alternately for prophylactic treatment works the best. I usually use one of them every 4-6 weeks to treat anything within the tank.

Another good practice is to get metronidazole powder and mix it in with some food and treat a tank ONCE you start seeing a fish not eating or spitting. If he doesn't want to eat the food, get some garlic extract and put some in the tank. This will help build the fishes immune system and possibly get him to eat the medicated food. Hope this helps.