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Smaller water changes better?

Fishn'

CCA Members
This is very interesting to me. Fresh water is a vital part of the world any fish lives in. However, I've always thought there has to be a better way. The physical act of changing 50% of the stability of a tank at once is not natural and I feel is instability. Yet, the water has to be cleaned.

This could be one of the next big changes on the horizon for the hobby. How water renewal is done.
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
Unless you have something to remove nitrates in the water column, water changes will always be part of the hobby. Drip systems that slowly change water out drop by drop are popular and provide your “stability” without “water changes” but they are not super easy to set up for a smaller system. They are more useful on large tanks/systems. Still, the waste goes somewhere and the beneficial bacteria have to be disturbed and renewed every so often in order to keep your stability. Closed system tanks are ticking time bombs unless super lightly stocked and super heavily planted. Even then you run into issues. Once you think about it, you’d spend more time coming up with a way and preparing a tank and maintaining/tweaking the tank to not have to do water changes than you would to just do your water maintenance.

As per 50% water changes, most people agree that smaller 10-20% water changes are far less taxing on the fish, but you have to do them more frequently, so do you stress them out more times per month but for shorter periods of time or do you stress them less times per month but for longer periods of time? It’s all a cat and mouse game.

6 of one, a half dozen of another.
 

FishEggs

Well-Known Member
This is very interesting to me. Fresh water is a vital part of the world any fish lives in. However, I've always thought there has to be a better way. The physical act of changing 50% of the stability of a tank at once is not natural and I feel is instability. Yet, the water has to be cleaned.

This could be one of the next big changes on the horizon for the hobby. How water renewal is done.

In some places a 50% water change is natural. When the rains come it ends up in streams/rivers and ponds/lakes changing the water chemistry.
 

Fishn'

CCA Members
In some places a 50% water change is natural. When the rains come it ends up in streams/rivers and ponds/lakes changing the water chemistry.
Absolutely. It would be interesting to match the water exchange to the natural habitat of the species and compare long term health, color patterns, offspring, etc...
 

Fishn'

CCA Members
Unless you have something to remove nitrates in the water column, water changes will always be part of the hobby. Drip systems that slowly change water out drop by drop are popular and provide your “stability” without “water changes” but they are not super easy to set up for a smaller system. They are more useful on large tanks/systems. Still, the waste goes somewhere and the beneficial bacteria have to be disturbed and renewed every so often in order to keep your stability. Closed system tanks are ticking time bombs unless super lightly stocked and super heavily planted. Even then you run into issues. Once you think about it, you’d spend more time coming up with a way and preparing a tank and maintaining/tweaking the tank to not have to do water changes than you would to just do your water maintenance.

As per 50% water changes, most people agree that smaller 10-20% water changes are far less taxing on the fish, but you have to do them more frequently, so do you stress them out more times per month but for shorter periods of time or do you stress them less times per month but for longer periods of time? It’s all a cat and mouse game.

6 of one, a half dozen of another.
Where did the closed system come from? I don't think the article mentions that.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
My old fishroom had a drip auto-water change system on nearly all of the tanks. Even with small, daily water changes nitrates creep up. I found myself doing larger and larger daily water changes...and monthly large water changes to keep nitrates as low as possible.

It really depends on the fish. I was keeping a lot of Malawi fish at the time...and they like big water changes. If I was keeping Apistos the 10% daily would have been great.

Matt
 

jonclark96

Past CCA President
Interesting subject. Admittedly, I didn't read the entire article, but I'd think that in nature, and especially in riverine species, they are exposed to almost constant "water changes".
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
Where did the closed system come from? I don't think the article mentions that.

It didn’t. But I’ve heard arguments for heavily planted tanks or deep bed tanks to avoid having to do water changes all together. It’s where this conversation tends to go, but it’s not super sustainable unless there is very little ammonia being produced.

I agree with fish having large “water changes” in the form of rain or even floods. It would be interesting to see as you said whether matching natural “water change” patterns would improve fish health. I can tell you that most breeders understand that water changes, or lack of water changes can bring on spawning when mirroring natural water tendencies, such as for dry or wet season spawners.
 

Fishn'

CCA Members
It's all very interesting to me. I enjoy keeping the ecosystem the most. Sometimes a rainy season, sometimes a dry season, maybe a steady flowing river for some fish, etc...
 

FishEggs

Well-Known Member
I didn't see in the article whether they used all male fish or female or both. I'm sure it would make a difference in the aggression issue.
I feel it was kind of a pointless study.
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
Drip systems only help to remove dissolved wastes. They do nothing to remove the source. You need strong mechanical filtration, and regular syphonining.

This. The waste goes somewhere. Better in your filter than deep in the substrate to foul the water.
 

Fishn'

CCA Members
Again, this thread is going on about this invisible "no water change" or no filtration ghost on here somewhere. Somebody point out to me where this was suggested?

I believe the article is simply observing and stating that a specific fish responded with improved behavior with smaller and more frequent water changes.

Water Changes
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
Right. And we agree. I was speaking to your comment “...there has to be a better way,” and “...future of the hobby...” etc. There have been people for years that have tried to eliminate or improve upon water change technology. The simple fact is that water changes will always exist. As for the frequency, I also spoke about that. Those who own picky fish have been doing smaller, more frequent water changes for a long time with success. Many GBR owners will tell you small chemistry swings from a 50% water change can be deadly, myself included. And those who breed finicky fish who will only breed under certain conditions have used water changes or lackthereof to get their fish to breed. I’m simply saying that this information is rather antiquated in my opinion. I’m with Matt (FishEggs). This study was kind of pointless. Water changes affect breeding behavior in cichlids. When they get to feeling frisky, the aggression levels go up. There’s no new science here. As for the size of the water change affecting aggression, this will be species specific. One study on six fish of the same species is hardly a large enough sample size to say that smaller water changes lessen aggressive behavior.
 

JLW

CCA Members
It's funny... if you were to hop in the DeLorean and go visit my Grandfather in 1918, well, okay, I don't know if he had fish, but ... if he did, and you started talking to him, he'd probably tell you how much so they HATED the idea of water changes. You tried to even reduce evapouration.

The fish thrived in stable conditions, and the stability was provided by NEVER changing the water! :)
 

bossanova

Members
i do 60% every other day for discus and 60% a week for africans, with no issues... remember that the actual water being exchanged isn't half of what makes the environment stable, as the filter media, substrate and rocks/plants hold the bacteria. it doesn't really float in the water column, correct?
 
I think the interpretation of the test results is wrong.

Large WC does not induce more aggression to all fish, only Amazonian fish by inducing breeding urge coinciding with the coming of rainy season, which indirectly increases agression. Large WC has no effect on and will not trigger breeding urge of African Great Lake fish that are used to stable water conditions.
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
I think the interpretation of the test results is wrong.

Large WC does not induce more aggression to all fish, only Amazonian fish by inducing breeding urge coinciding with the coming of rainy season, which indirectly increases agression. Large WC has no effect on and will not trigger breeding urge of African Great Lake fish that are used to stable water conditions.

See, but this is why I believe this study is such a sham. It doesn't test any other fish from any other water source. To truly say that small water changes help reduce aggression in cichlid species, you need to test different subsets of fish.
 
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