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Something bad is going on in my tank, need help diagnosing/curing

Epic2112

Members
I've got a 220 Mbuna (mostly) tank. A while back I noticed a couple of my bigger males had swollen lips. I figured that there had been some lip-locking scuffles and thought nothing more of it. Everyone was eating and acting normal so I just chalked it up to the typical Mbuna battle scars.

It's now a couple of months later, and there is clearly something vey wrong. Whatever it is that I'm seeing, it isn't from the fish tussling with each other. Here's what I see in terms of symptoms. Near as I can tell symptoms first start in the dorsal fin, with some irregularity to the top edge. Normally I'd think there had just been a bit of nipping. Following that there is weird swelling of the mouth/lips, and even weirder deformation and swelling to the fins, plus changes to coloration. All behavior seems normal: swimming, protecting territory, eating, I've even got a female that is starting to show symptoms that is holding fry, so they're even spawning.

But in the couple of fish where I first noticed symptoms there's unmistakably something vey wrong. Any help anyone can provide is deeply appreciated.

Out of desperation I've tried a couple of random things to no avail:
  • Raise the tank temp to 81 degrees for a week: no change
  • Drop the temp to 76 degrees for a week: no change
  • Dose the entire tank with Metronidazole for a week: no change (except a lighter wallet)
As far as I can tell the symptoms are vaguely similar to Columnaris in that the mouths and fins are effected, however everything I've read says that Columnaris kills in hours to days, this has been going on for months in my tank so I don't think that's it. I've had only one casualty in the tank, and it was with an older fish that I'm not sure was showing symptoms, so it may have been coincidental.

Tank details:

  • 220 gallon mostly Mbuna tank (there are a few medium/large haps, plus a medium sized Frontosa)
  • The tank is established, it's been up for about a year
  • Temp: about 79 degrees
  • Filtration: 2 Eheim 2217s, 1 Fluval FX5, UV filter. All established.
  • Typically do two or three 15 - 30% water changes a week. I use Prime to treat the water.
  • I haven't done a water quality test lately (I'm colorblind and need the wife's assistance, when she's willing), but I rarely have issues that I can trace to water quality.
  • pH is typically high 7s
  • I don't have KH & GH specs handy, but if it seems like they'll help the diagnosis I'll corner my better half so she helps me
    icon_smile.gif
    . I use a homemade buffer of aquarium salt, baking soda, & epsom salt, plus there is aragonite substrate in the tank.
  • Ammonia & Nitrite are usually close to zero. Nitrate tends to be a challenge, often above 40 - 50 ppm.
  • Generally I think the fish are happy with the water quality, it's rare that I don't have any spawning/holding.
Photos (did my best, getting pics of these guys is tough)
Cherry Red Zebra
  • Huge swelling of the lips/mouth
  • Ragged edges of fins
  • Big growth on leading edge of anal fin
  • Coloration is a bit off, his colors looked much better when he was healthy
MTXtDLa.jpg

wXd1HGB.jpg

cxqOJMb.jpg

jTCCcY0.jpg


Cobalt Blue Zebra
  • Splotchy coloration
  • Ragged edges of fins
  • Mouth isn't quite right, but no where near as bad as the Red Zebra
  • Growths in the leading edges of both pelvic fins
DEoA9Or.jpg

Ke0YLD0.jpg

L6EG9jf.jpg


The beginnings of symptoms in other fish, I think
  • Seems to start as what could be mistaken for nips in the dorsal fins
  • Also note the difference in the coloration of the below cobalt blue zebra and the one above. This is how they both used to look.
AUhObtK.jpg

PO1urt1.jpg
 

Becca

Members
Aquatic creations on 355 in Hyattstown/Urbana has old meds that they'll sell you at a discount. I hesitate to tell you this because I like to buy them... They're generally more potent than what you can find these days, easier to dose, and more cost effective: Furanase and Clout (original formulation). That's what we used when we had to treat our 210. Original issue was ich (we always get it in at least 1 tank this time of year) but raising temps caused a bacterial issue.
 

Becca

Members
Also, if you think either of those would help, I have some and can sell you enough to dose your tank.
 

Epic2112

Members
Thanks Becca, it's much appreciated.

I think the wisest step t this point is probably to figure out what on earth is going on here. Hoping someone recognizes this (or can confirm Columnaris could potentially be slow-moving like this). Otherwise I'll just be medicating randomly out of desperation, which hasn't worked so far.
 

Becca

Members
Are you able to remove the fish showing symptoms? I would take them out if other fish seem healthy.

My understanding of Metro is that it's not as readily available when dosed in the tank as it is when it's consumed. If you think this is something bacterial, you may want to go with something broad spectrum that can be absorbed more readily through the skin. Kanamycin comes to mind and Furan/Furanase is also an option. When I dose the tank (as opposed to food) I also use a product like Seachem's Stress Guard or Kordon's fish protector. It helps bind the meds to the fish, supposedly.

Have you considered Lymphocystis? It can cause tumors, growths, lumps, bumps, fuzzy spots on fins. It might even cause fins to tear if a fish gets a heavy growth that creates drag in the water towards the edge of a fin.

If it's viral, your best bet is to make sure you're feeding high quality foods with probiotics and vitamins, I think, if the fish are still eating. I don't think you can really cure lymphocystis, but you can reduce stress on the fish so the flare up dies down.
 

Epic2112

Members
I only have a small hospital tank, 10 gallons. If it were just one Mbuna I might try it, but if I am conservative and grab all of the fish that are showing the little nipping-like tears I'm probably over 10. It'd be a bloodbath :(

At this point I do think I just want to try dosing the entire 220.

The fish get fed primarily a combination of YFS cichlid flakes, YFS Green Supreme pellets, YFS soft Spirulina pellets, and the occasional YFS veggie wafer/boiled fresh zuccini/blanched romaine. I feed probably 4/5 days a week, not every day, but I'm not particularly religious about it.

I don't *think* it's Lymphocystis, because those growths only show up on the mouth or the edges of the fins whereas Lymphocystis seems to be indiscriminate, showing up all over the fish. Also, if everything else is in good shape, doesn't Lymphocystis usually clear up on it's own, like a cold?
 

FishEggs

Well-Known Member
It sounds like the same thing I'm dealing with and can't figure out what it is. I have a 220g also with a mix of mbuna and peacocks and other which have many of the same symptoms though some of my fish get white pimple like spots in various places also and some get tumor like bulges as well as the swollen lips.

I've tried quite a few different treatments over the past 8-10 months or so including metro dosed food several times. I've tried Prazipro and Paraguard several times. I've done Epsom salt soaked food and salted the tank. Nothing has gotten rid of whatever it is. They look a little better after some of the treatments but not cured and none of the tumor like bulges/nodes ever goes away. I'm about ready to go the route of mad cow disease and take out any of them that show any sign of this before the other half of my fish get it.
 

Epic2112

Members
Ugh, yeah the last thing I'm looking forward to is euthanizing some of the fish I've had the longest. Especially if whatever this is could be dormant for a while and all my other fish could be hosting it as well anyway.
 

FishEggs

Well-Known Member
Yeah I don't really want to either. I have other fish I've been growing out in another tank though that are ready to go into the 220 and I'm reluctant to put them into a tank with some sort of infection in it.

I'm going to try a high temp of 88° since that's what the speaker suggested for wild caught fish treatment. See if that does anything. Just like when you get a fever to fight off the flu virus. I'll give them a fever.
 

Epic2112

Members
I'm in a similar situation. I've got a bunch of Copadichromis Borleyi in my 10G hospital tank right now. They're big enough to go in the 220, but I don't want to put them in if they're just going to get sick.

Keep me posted on how the temp raise effects things, if at all, I didn't go above 81 with mine.
 

bossanova

Members
have you tried any of the other forums? i've never seen that before, looks bad. so sorry you're having this trouble!
 

xny89

Administrator
Staff member
I've been doing some online searches and have come up with zilch! I like bossanova's response - try the ACA.org website for national exposure. I've got that one fish with the enlarged lips and it has not infected any of my other fish.
 

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
It certainly looks bad. I'd go with isolation first and then euthanize if treatment doesn't help. Let's try to save the fish first. Go buy a 10 or 20 gallon if you need space and isolate the sick individuals. You also don't need to kill to get a sample. A clipping from the fin and a swab from the swollen lips should be sufficient.
 

Epic2112

Members
How would I go about doing that? I've never done anything like that before.
How do I find a lab/does the sample need to be on ice & shipped/etc?

And what sort of info would I get back? Enough for me to act on myself (in other words would they be able to tell me what meds to use to treat the fish and that sort of thing? Or would I get back a stack of complicated paperwork that means nothing to me?
 

Epic2112

Members
Go buy a 10 or 20 gallon if you need space and isolate the sick individuals.

Err, how many mbuna would a 10 or 20 safely hold? I'm thinking I need a 55g hospital tank here if I'm going to do more good than harm. Especially because, even in the best of circumstances, I think I'm looking at a long period before everything is good and safe to return to the general population.
 
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