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Hybrids, Line breeding / inbreeding , selective breeding

Acpape0

Acpape0

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Ill give it a shot to tomorrow( timer already shut down lights) he has a lot of blue in him that the picture doesn't show... All of the white has a blue tint.


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neut

neut

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jonclark96 said:
The hybrid debate has been a hot topic for a long time. Although I don't agree with the "all fish are hybrids if you go back far enough" theory, I'm not against anyone keeping fish they enjoy. Just be straight forward with what you have should you pass it along to another hobbyist. I like to keep fish that are close to their natural existence as I can (and I have a number of wild caught specimens from reliable sources). I like to breed the fish and keep them within known provenance. But that's just me. Do I think that OB peacocks and Thai silk flowerhorns and fancy discus and fancy angels and fancy livebearers are stunningly beautiful? Absolutely yes.

Keep what you like. Keep it well and keep it healthy.
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+1 to pretty much all of the above.

The 'all fish are hybrids' theory is unscientific if you're talking about wild fish. At best it's an inaccurate oversimplification. Yes, there can be gene flow between some populations and in certain circumstances (historically changing water levels in Lake Malawi, for example), instead of a linear history of species radiation there's been repeated natural cycles of species consolidation followed by species radiation. But that's the way nature works and the overall biology trends toward species radiation, given the opportunity, or distinct populations from common ancestors.

The no fish in the hobby are pure theory I see some espouse is often either a cynical oversimplification or a cop-out imo. There are clearly many species that a responsible and honest fishkeeper/breeder can either buy wild or obtain from other honest and reputable sources and it's a simple matter to keep them pure with basic responsible fishkeeping. It's an insult to my responsible fishkeeping where I have species from reputable sources, that I can document and/or explain their background, and that breed absolutely true to their species, for them to be painted over with the broad brush statement that 'all fish in the hobby are hybrids'.

On the other hand, 'natural selection' in the artificial environment of a tank is more or less a contradiction in terms. Clearly, one way or another, tank breeding is ruled by human selection-- you select what individuals you buy and put in your tank or the seller selects what individuals to ship to you-- even if you're out in the river collecting for yourself it's still human intervention. After that point individual fish may or may not be able to select their own breeding partners, but from a very limited pool of options. It may technically not be line breeding in the full sense, but don't fool yourself-- whether by design or to some random degree, in some form or another the fish in your tank have been humanly selected, so it's still selective breeding. But-- that's a whole different thing from hybridizing (mixing) species and it absolutely doesn't mean you can't maintain a true lineage that constitutes a domestic version of the true species. You just don't have the same random, natural (or sometimes man-made) cycles and events governing genetic mechanisms as in the wild-- though, to a degree, you could argue how 'wild' some wild environments really are where human activity affects the natural environment.
 
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CichlidAddict

CichlidAddict

Members
There is huge difference between two types of hybrids: Line bred hybrids with a goal to develop certain traits, and accidental hybrids that happened randomly in someone tanks.

I have no problem with the first type. Even anti hybrid advocates such as ACA accept fancy hybrid peacocks as exception. It is the second type that is problematic because there is nothing to gain from accidental hybridization.

Line bred hybrids took paintaking efforts and years to develop specific traits. Some of the best looking peacocks, discus and Flowerhown are line bred hybrids. Buying pure speces or line bred hybrids is like buying named brands--You know exactly what the adults will turn out.

Buying accidental hybrids is buying into unknown. I have no interest in raising random unknown. Accidental hybrids used to be a huge problem in the hobby as hobbyists traded in their random hybrids with LFSs and with one other. Not anymore as hobbyists and LFSs are smart enough today not to accept random hybrids to pollute the gene pool.

There is nothing morally wrong to keep accidental hybrids yourself, but it is morrally wrong to sell and mislabel hybrids as pure species.
 
npbarca

npbarca

Members
CichlidAddict said:
There is huge difference between two types of hybrids: Line bred hybrids with a goal to develop certain traits, and accidental hybrids that happened randomly in someone tanks.

I have no problem with the first type. Even anti hybrid advocates such as ACA accept fancy hybrid peacocks as exception. It is the second type that is problematic because there is nothing to gain from accidental hybridization.

Line bred hybrids took paintaking efforts and years to develop specific traits. Some of the best looking peacocks, discus and Flowerhown are line bred hybrids. Buying pure speces or line bred hybrids is like buying named brands--You know exactly what the adults will turn out.

Buying accidental hybrids is buying into unknown. I have no interest in raising random unknown. Accidental hybrids used to be a huge problem in the hobby as hobbyists traded in their random hybrids with LFSs and with one other. Not anymore as hobbyists and LFSs are smart enough today not to accept random hybrids to pollute the gene pool.

There is nothing morally wrong to keep accidental hybrids yourself, but it is morrally wrong to sell and mislabel hybrids as pure species.
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+1

Just because lfs don't always label their fish correctly doesn't mean it's right.
No one is saying that lfs don't sell hybrids. They do, and that Is why I buy my fish that I wish to breed from reputable sources.
 
CichlidAddict

CichlidAddict

Members
Acpape0 said:
I disagree there is not a single lfs or lps that does not or has not sell/ sold hybrids of some sort


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I did not make that absolute claim. I am sure a few bad LFSs still sell random hybrids, but it is far less common today as it used to. Most reputable LFSs and chain pet stores won't even take trade in from customers. Hobbyists and fish farms know better today that random hybrids have no market and don't knowingly spread them.
 
CichlidAddict

CichlidAddict

Members
npbarca said:
+1

Just because lfs don't always label their fish correctly doesn't mean it's right.
No one is saying that lfs don't sell hybrids. They do, and that Is why I buy my fish that I wish to breed from reputable sources.
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Are you saying that you only buy fish from reputable breeders and avoid buying fish from LFSs because they all sell hybrids. This is one reason why nearly all independent LFSs have closed down in your area and you have no choice but to buy from breeders. Since there are so few independent LFSs left in your area, I want to know which ones frequently mislable and sell random hybrids.
 
npbarca

npbarca

Members
No, If I am buying fish to breed, then I get them from breeders. I only have breeding group tanks for malawis, so I usually do not buy malawis from a LFS. I always buy community fish, supplies, and oddballs from my LFS. Just not malawis that I am looking to breed.

Congressional Aquarium is my closest LFS. They have a limited number of Malawis, only 2 "mixed" tanks, and 3 or 4 tanks of yellow labs, red zebras, kenyi, some julies, and some common peacock males.
 
neut

neut

Members
I wouldn't make a blanket statement about lfs. Most do sell some obvious, known hybrids, so that's one thing. And the real enthusiast's fish shop with top notch fish, knowledgeable personnel, etc. as a disappearing breed replaced by corporate pet stores or leaving some independent little local pet stores selling mediocre stock is well documented. But there are still some quality or specialist fish shops left that know what they're doing, including some with their own breeding programs going. Maybe not in your neighborhood, but they still exist.
 
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