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Hybrids, Line breeding / inbreeding , selective breeding

judtaaron

Members
Hi everyone .. Im still in the excited phase of joining CCA so Im posting when ever it strikes me bare with me Ill calm down soon !
So I have seen allot members as I have checked out the site who keep hybrids and I wondered what CCA in general felt about hybrids as well as what other members thought .
I understand the purist perspective but often wonder how a purist feels about line breeding and selective breeding both betraying natural selection it must cause a moment of hmmmmmmm.
I have kept flowerhorns and various parrots as well as line bred and selective bred fish from discus to rams etc. At the end of the day it is all subjective but figured it was worth a conversation on here .

The fish below was my first flowerhorn he lived almost 7 yrs (not sure if that is outstanding or not but it impressed me ) He was first generation red dragon he was massive at 14 inches and was puppy dog tame to the point i would pet him and lift him out of the water .
the 2nd pic is my first parrots from happybreed.com








I pulled these definitions off the net as a reference

hybrid >In general usage, hybrid is synonymous with heterozygous: any offspring resulting from the mating of two genetically distinct individuals
a genetic hybrid carries two different alleles of the same gene
a structural hybrid results from the fusion of gametes that have differing structure in at least one chromosome, as a result of structural abnormalities
a numerical hybrid results from the fusion of gametes having different haploid numbers of chromosomes
a permanent hybrid is a situation where only the heterozygous genotype occurs, because all homozygous combinations are lethal.
From a taxonomic perspective, hybrid refers to:

Offspring resulting from the interbreeding between two animals or plants of different species.[2] See also hybrid speciation.
Hybrids between different subspecies within a species (such as between the Bengal tiger and Siberian tiger) are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different species within the same genus (such as between lions and tigers) are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different genera (such as between sheep and goats) are known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).[3] No interordinal (between different orders) animal hybrids are known.
The third type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization.

inbreeding is reproduction from the mating of pairs who are closely related genetically.[1] Inbreeding results in homozygosity, which can increase the chances of offspring being affected by recessive or deleterious traits.[2] This generally leads to a decreased fitness of a population,[3][4] which is called inbreeding depression. An individual who results from inbreeding is referred to as inbred. The avoidance of expression of deleterious recessive alleles caused by inbreeding is thought to be the main selective force maintaining the outcrossing aspect of sexual reproduction

Selective breeding (also called artificial selection) is the process by which humans breed other animals and plants for particular traits.

first red dragon.jpg

my parrot fish.JPG
 

Acpape0

Members
I select all of my fish off of looks. I really don't care to much about wether it is a hybrid or not.... There is no such thing as a pure strain anyways


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npbarca

Members
I personally don't think you should hybridize if you are even thinking about selling or giving away the offspring. If you are just keeping a few fish like a red devil and Dempsey and they hybridize for example, it would be ok as long as you do not sell the offspring.

On the other hand, I personally like as close to wild fish as I can get. For example, my soon to be set up Amazon biotope will include only wild fish.
 

Localzoo

Board of Directors
It's a really deep heated debate.
I've chosen not to hybridize(slightly less natural) but its difficult for me to justify only keeping wild caught (impact on environment)
As long as you are well informed and keep good records, tell anyone your trading, selling etc... about the hybrids

In the end it's a matter of personal opinion.


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judtaaron

Members
I totally think responsible fish keeping should be the foundation for any hobbyist . Selling a hybrid with out disclosure is a reflection of your character . I also am opposed to the release of fish into non native waters etc.
I do however question the authenticity of say a line bred fish in reference to being more ethical than say a hybrid flowerhorn . I think they both are " unnatural" I debated with a man who breeds german rams once and he argued that line bred fish were the end result of the most perfect possible out come of a wild fish that it however was still "pure genetics" and I acknowledged the truth of it in theory but scoffed at the idea a hybrid fish were inferior because after all it was the most perfect outcome of wild fish cross breeding ............ and that both in fact side stepped natural selection and by virtue of avoiding natural selection both were equally an " abomination " lol
Natural selection at the end of the day is just the result of endless hybridization isolation and opportunity
I am excited that people are friendly here and non judgey . At the end of the day it does come down to personal taste . Thanks for responding and giving me a idea of the perspective here . I am so glad to be talking fish with ........... anyone lol My partner doesn't share my passion for fish so you guys are my outlet . take care
 

Localzoo

Board of Directors
I totally think responsible fish keeping should be the foundation for any hobbyist . Selling a hybrid with out disclosure is a reflection of your character . I also am opposed to the release of fish into non native waters etc.
I do however question the authenticity of say a line bred fish in reference to being more ethical than say a hybrid flowerhorn . I think they both are " unnatural" I debated with a man who breeds german rams once and he argued that line bred fish were the end result of the most perfect possible out come of a wild fish that it however was still "pure genetics" and I acknowledged the truth of it in theory but scoffed at the idea a hybrid fish were inferior because after all it was the most perfect outcome of wild fish cross breeding ............ and that both in fact side stepped natural selection and by virtue of avoiding natural selection both were equally an " abomination " lol
Natural selection at the end of the day is just the result of endless hybridization isolation and opportunity
I am excited that people are friendly here and non judgey . At the end of the day it does come down to personal taste . Thanks for responding and giving me a idea of the perspective here . I am so glad to be talking fish with ........... anyone lol My partner doesn't share my passion for fish so you guys are my outlet . take care

Yea people are pretty chill here, like I said I've seen some beautiful hybrids and line bred fish. The idea of perfection is weird bc it can refer to perfect color behaviors health etc. It's just a matter of opinion.

I believe if you are open minded enough to listen to both sides you can learn a lot not just in the hobby...

Is your partner tolerant if the hobby or doesn't care? My wife seems interested will pick out fish...but I get to do all the research etc. LOL


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npbarca

Members
Whatever floats your boat, just don't sell hybrid offspring to people unless they know 100% that it is a hybrid.
 

Acpape0

Members
Are you under the assumption that hybrids do not happen in nature/ wild? Lets be real here. If you by anything from an "assorted peacock" tank you are pretty much always getting a hybrid. As for labeling a fish you are giving away for free as a hybrid is not practical. The only "pure" stain is from the wild and even that is not even close to a guarantee.


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npbarca

Members
That Is exactly why I don't buy anything from an "assorted" tank. And yes, you should most definitely label a hybrid as a hybrid if you wish to sell it or give it away. If someone wants to buy a particular fish, for example a rusty, they are looking for a rusty, not a rusty/red zebra hybrid. And if you are giving away/selling fish that are hybrids under something else's name, then that is wrong. Plain and simple.
 

Acpape0

Members
Not big on selling I prefer to give for free when it comes to live stock ( my wife hates this ) if I ever do sell it is for fractions of value never more than a couple bucks and this solely so I can tell her I didn't give away .... Free is free take it or leave it. My point is that the vast majority of people shop for fish based only on beauty of fish. If someone was looking to breed for profit that is different. I do not look at or agree at looking at hybrids as inferior or some "pandemic" to the hobby.


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jonclark96

Past CCA President
The hybrid debate has been a hot topic for a long time. Although I don't agree with the "all fish are hybrids if you go back far enough" theory, I'm not against anyone keeping fish they enjoy. Just be straight forward with what you have should you pass it along to another hobbyist. I like to keep fish that are close to their natural existence as I can (and I have a number of wild caught specimens from reliable sources). I like to breed the fish and keep them within known provenance. But that's just me. Do I think that OB peacocks and Thai silk flowerhorns and fancy discus and fancy angels and fancy livebearers are stunningly beautiful? Absolutely yes.

Keep what you like. Keep it well and keep it healthy.
 
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