HOnduran Red Point Debate - I Got Some Answers

[Hawkman2000]

After getting into a pretty big arument with MonteSS, and lots of reading and compairing pics and vids, I decided to email Jeff Rapps and get a second oppinion.

Turns out that both MonteSS and I are most likely wrong. The cichlids that MonteSS is breeding and selling are regular blue convics. The cichlids that I have (and bred) are a variant of convict. I emailed Mr. Rapps 3 times for verification just to be sure.

Here is all of my emails to and from Mr. Rapps (You have to read them in reverse order, I didn't feel like reorganizing -



Re: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info

yes looking more like nigrofas to me.
Ref pics attached. I believe the Panama convict was given a species name since I took pics, but you see what I mean.

----- Original Message -----
From: hawkman2000
To: 'Jeff Rapps'
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info


So both vid A and B are convict or hybrid?


From: Jeff Rapps [mailto:bigguapote1@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 9:19 PM
To: hawkman2000
Subject: Re: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info


Thanks for your follow up Chad.

I am quite sure you are breeding common convicts.

Note the mutliple vertical bars on your fish vs the lesser and wider bars on hrp.

I have collected extensively in Honduras and have seen the variations of convicts from one watershed to the next.

I have also imported countless numbers of wild convicts from Nicaragua lakes and rivers.

I am responsible for introducing the calico/marbled convict to the trade 15 years ago.

In other words, I've seen and worked with a lot of convicts.

Best regards, jeff

----- Original Message -----

From: hawkman2000

To: 'Jeff Rapps'

Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 4:59 PM

Subject: RE: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info



So this one (Video A - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFzJjZvh4Cw) are HRP even though she bears none of the markings listed and shown one these sites

http://fish4thought.wordpress.com/2...-cryptoheros-sp-honduran-red-point-rio-danli/
http://www.borstein.com/sam/index.php?download=Online%20Article%20HRP.pdf

It also appears that she laid a lot more than 60 eggs

All of the pics and vids I have seen show HRPs having red spotted belies, flushing colored dorsal and anal fins, and a red tinted tail.

This is the video of mine. (bear in mind the are only 6 months old and 1.75 to 2.25 inches long)

Video B - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2OeC9FBuE

It seems that this debate has been going on for awhile now. I am starting to think that all cichlids labeled as HRP, Blue convict, or red tailed convict are actually hybrids.

I am not trying to be mean or anything, its just that all of this controversy over these little guys needs to come to an end.

From: Jeff Rapps [mailto:bigguapote1@verizon.net]
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 2:56 PM
To: hawkman2000
Subject: Re: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info


Hi Chad

I just viewed the fish in your youtube video. Those are common convicts as I see it.

They are banded up through their dorsals even at a young age and tend to be a little more stocky bodied as well.

The orange abdominal area is less prominent in HRP as well.

Best regards, jeff

----- Original Message -----

From: hawkman2000

To: bigguapote1@verizon.net

Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 9:41 PM

Subject: Wondering if you coulb help with HRP info



Mr. Rapps

Another individual and I are debating on a CCA forum about Honduran Red Points/Cryptoheros sp. The guy I am arguing with is selling juvis that he claims to be HRP. However, the photos and videos of the fish he has posted look more like regular convicts or maybe hrp hybrids (think that one of the photos is pulled from google images). I myself have HRPs and have done alot of reading on the species. I have looked at the picture of the F-HRP on your site and the red belly spots are there (barely).

Anyways

I attached one of the forum pages since you would probably have to be a member to view it online.

I just don’t like seeing people getting screwed, whether or not it is intentional.

Chad
​

 

[Hawkman2000]

After doing some more research based on what Mr. Rapps told me I was able to discover my cichlids species. My variant of convict is called a Panama Convict - Amatitlania kanna "Rio Rabalo". It was just recently named and has become very popular and almost common. From what I can tell, most of the cichlids out there that are claimed to be HRP are either the Panama variant or hybrids. Turns out HRPs don't have much blue on them at all.

 

[dogofwar]

In 2007 Juan Schmitter-Soto proposed removal of "Convicts" from Cryptoheros unto a new Genus called "Amatitlania"...and for "convicts" to be broken into four species:
A. nigrofasciata
A. siquia
A. coatepeque
A. kanna

Of course, the validity of Amatitlania is in dispute among icthyologists (not all have accepted it vs. Cryptoheros).

The fish called "Honduran Red Point" (that was originally, I believe, collected by Rusty Wessel in Rio Danli, Honduras) has not been assigned to any of the above 4 species. There is also a Rio Monga fish that is also called "Honduran Red Point" but is different from the Rio Danli one (and others).

Just about every stream in Central America has a "convict"-type fish (and many also have a spilurum or cutteri-type). And they're all different in their own ways.

It is not possible to visually confirm that a "convict" is one species or locality or another visually...although it's more possible to identify that a particular fish ISN'T one thing or another...

The only way that I have faith in identifying these fish is by knowing their provenance: who collected them, where, when...etc.

Without that, they're all LFS "convicts" to me

Matt

 

[Hawkman2000]

I completely agree with everything you say Matt. I should have said that the cichlids I have LOOK like the Panama species.

I found more info on the topic. Covers just about all of the more recent stuff about convicts and there variants. There is alot to read.

http://www.faas.info/download/pub_awards/2008/011-01-PCCA.pdf

One day soon will be able to test there dna at a local 7-11, lol.

 

[mscichlid]

Chad, it's great that you went spent time to figure out the HRP/Convict conflict. I think we all have learned something. Thank you.