Herbie Method

[emj920]

Does anyone use the herbie method for their drains?

I saw that creepyoldguy was using it, but does anyone else use it?

I have a 120 RR tank that I recently picked up, and was thinking about setting it up using the herbie to cut down on noise, and possibly run a much higher flow rate through the tank. That way I might not have to also run my XP3 also.

The 120 has the dual corner overflows with 1 inch drains and 3/4 returns.
I am planning on using the 2 one inch bulkheads for the main drain standpipes, one of the 3/4 drains as the emergency drain, and the other as the return. Has anyone here tried that?

Originally I was going to use a wet/dry that came with it, but if I go with the herbie, I'll just run a glass tank as a sump with filter socks in it, with a gallon of matrix and all the ceramic media I have now.

Any thoughts??

Thanks,

Eric

 

[Tony]

It's a very interesting concept. I had never heard of it either until Creepy pointed it out on that thread. Definitely nice to improve flow and keep noise down.

I was considering it, but it would be a lot of work to replumb my 180 right now. Lowered noise by simply raising my intakes and installing dursos.

If you decide to go Herbie, please take some pics and update the thread. Would be a really cool project to follow.

 

[creepyoldguy]

Do the herbie method. It's simple and easy. For a 130, one drain will be plenty along w your emergency drain. Use a gate valve, its much easier than ball valve. You'll never regret it. My 300g was mote quiet than any tank you could imagine.

The concept of the herbie is based around the elimination of air falling down the standpipes w the water, which increases water flow capablity and reduces noise.

 

[Buckcich]

Zack would you be able to post pics of your set-up? Thanks

 

[creepyoldguy]

My setup is gone!!! Maybe later this evening o can find some old pics or dig some up off the net and bring up the main points so show you better. I would recommend using submerged media as well. A set dry defeats the purpose allowing noise

 

[Tony]

I believe that media in a wet/dry condition (super oxygenated) is much more effective than submerged media. Noise may be an overriding factor, but just wanted to put that out there.

 

[ltrepeter2000]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344892&pp=25

 

[emj920]

I have a gate valve, and all the plumbing parts. I'm going to start setting mine up tonight. It should be fairly easy since it's an empty tank.

I don't know the difference in the wet/dry to the submerged media. Super oxygenated does sound like it would be better, but I think that submerged will be more than efficient.
I have a gallon of Matrix, and a bunch of ceramic media from my canister that I can use. So even if the submerged media isn't as effective as the wet/dry function, hopefully it will be enough. The use of a filter sock is very appealing, since I hate cleaning the filter pads on top of a wet/dry. The reduction in noise is a big plus also, and the sound of my current wet/dry is not too bad, but I could definitley live without it.

 

[ezrk]

How is your tank set up? Number of overflows, holes, etc.?

 

[creepyoldguy]

Submerged media is mote efficient and cleaner than that of a wet dry. Rings and other submerged media has a greater surface than bio balls if scrubbies. The wet dry also allows a place for more build up of nitrates. This is another reason why this method is used so much w reefers, because its so efficient. Herbie himself did not design the method using a wet dry, nor do I really know anyone who uses the herbie w w/d, it defeats the purpose.

If you're a member of monsterfishkeepers.com, search for jcardona. He's a whiz at plumbing and has many threads w great pics and step by step directions on all types of systems.

 

[Tony]

Submerged media is mote efficient and cleaner than that of a wet dry.

Sorry, I disagree.

In terms of cleaner, you generally place your mechanical filtration - coarse pad, then fine, before biomedia, so that's not correct. No detritus should be reaching your biomedia in either setup.

In terms of efficiency, see below.

The wet dry also allows a place for more build up of nitrates. This is another reason why this method is used so much w reefers, because its so efficient.

Actually, reefers (my old self included - about 5 years before I joined this club) do not use any type of biomedia. The only "biomedia" used in a typical reef setup (not FOWLR, but reef - ie: SPS, anemones, clams - stuff super sensitive to nitrates) would be live rock or live sand. Both of these contain aerobic and anaerobic bacteria.... processing ammonia to nitrites to nitrates and nitrates to nitrogen gas, respectively.

In a sump (either with submerged or wet/dry media) there will be very little anaerobic bacteria as the flow of water will be somewhat rapid and oxygenated (as compared to the slow migration through a piece of live rock, deep sand bed or a coil dentrator). So, substantial denitrification (conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas) is out of the picture for either setup.

With this in mind, other than large water changes, the only ways to remove nitrates (besides large water changes) would be with live plants (impractical with many cichlids) or with chemical media (impractical in a large tank).

So the the focus of any fresh water sump (or any filtration for that matter) is to convert ammonia to nitrites and nitrites to nitrates - the job of aerobic bacteria. That which thrive on oxygen.

More oxygen = more aerobic activity = wet/dry much more gooder.

Q.E.D.

And yes, bioballs contain less surface area than ceramics, but are better at creating turbulence in the water around (and oxygenating it). The ideal solution (as discussed with Stephan Tanner of Swiss Aquatics) is to swap out bioballs over to stacked layers of coarse foam (after your mechanical filtration, of course).

So yeah, ceramics are great, but great only if you don't have super-oxygenated water (below the water line or in a canister).

 

[Tony]

Herbi90e himself did not design the method using a wet dry, nor do I really know anyone who uses the herbie w w/d, it defeats the purpose.

So what is the "purpose" of the Herbie method?

Yes, a major plus to it is the reduction in sound outside of the stand.

But, you are overlooking another key reason why many have switched over to it - increased flow.

On my 180, I have swapped out the old stand pipe system with dursos and greatly reduced the noise. The water still flows though a wet/dry, but since the swap, I've reduced the overall noise by about 90%. If you have a wooden stand with doors, you'll barely hear it.

In my opinion, if you want a dead-quiet fish tank, go with Herbie with submerged media.

If you want to keep something like a large hap or a new world tank with a decent bioload, the extra bit of noise coming from a wet/dry from under the stand is worth the peace of mind that my fish will remain healthy.

 

[creepyoldguy]

I didnt meaner cleaner as in clean water, water quality and clarity are 2 totally different things. Submerged media takes up less space and is overall more effective. Higher surface area, less space and still holds all the bb youd ever need.

. I refer to biomedia as anything that grows bacteria. Which includes sand, rock, rings, pads etc etc. To me, there is no difference between liverock or bio rings. WHen both are submerged, they do the same thing. Live rock is just a name ppl use to charge more money for the same thing. Live rock and live rings are the same. Bacteria grows on both, but you wouldn't pay $7 a lb for live rings would ya? haha

I know all about the herbie method and how it increases flow, hence the reason I explained how water and air fall down the stand pipe together, with the air taking up more space. WHen the air is elimated, more water can flow. When you add the wet/dry, it will actually decrease the total water flow

Also, oxygenation can be produced wih powerheads turning the surface of the water causing the exchange in gases.
Heres a post of why w/d aren't as "clean" but not referring to clarity

"The Bio-ball wet/dry systems are to help create an 02 rich enviorment for Ammonia and Nirtite eating bacterial colonies expelling Nitrate, not a bad system for Fish Only, but not good for reefs as fish can handle higher nitrate readings than most inverts and alot of times high nitrates can walk hand-in hand with higher Phosphate readings. These higher PO4 and N03 levels prohibit corals ability to process calcium. Almost all, if not all media has the potential to be a Nitrate bomb if they are not cleaned or changed regularly. Prefilter pads, sponge blocks, and cloth bags should be rinsed off weekly. Carbon and other pellitized media needs to be changed according to it's exporation piont.

I use submerged Liverock in sump. The LR can hold de-nitrifying bacterial colonies along with micro and macro colonies to help convert Nitrate to Nitrogen gas. Your Liverock is your main water filter. The rest are pretty much "A" specific. The skimmer will help remove excess dissolved protiens and the cyclone/air injected skimmers increase 02. Water movement within the tank should be powerheads facing each other this helps circulate the 02, eliminate dead spots, and help hold the corals food in suspension. Depending on your tanks specific needs - carbon bags, calcium reactors, PO4 reactors, PO4 bags, biocarbonate dosing or reactors , etc., etc. can be very useful keeping the water parameters in check. Doing 50% w/c's weekly can be quite expensive and harmful as saltwater life can be more sensetive towards swings in Temp, PH, KH, and Salinity that are associated with large volume water changes."

Stolen from mfk. This was regarding salt tanks, but the same holds true for fresh.

 

[creepyoldguy]

Anyway, back to the OP, if you want to do the herbie the way he designed it, use submerged media. Best way to do this is to use filter socks that are submerged in water.

I'm no salt water expert, but if reefers use submerged media for corals and sensitive livestock, I'm pretty sure the method is safe with some hardy Africans

 

[Tony]

I don't like to get into debates on forums, but don't like it when people give advice based on incorrect facts.

Comparing reef tanks to freshwater tanks is an apples-to-oranges comparison.

-Reef tanks = very low bioload, organisms sensitive to very low nitrate levels
-Cichlid tanks = higher bioload, organisms tolerant of moderate to high nitrate levels

That in mind:

I didnt meaner cleaner as in clean water, water quality and clarity are 2 totally different things. Submerged media takes up less space and is overall more effective. Higher surface area, less space and still holds all the bb youd ever need.

Actually no. While ceramic rings have more surface area than bioballs, as I state above, the super-oxygenated environment of water falling on media that is constantly flashed with atmospheric oxygen offsets the additional surface area of the ceramics placed under the water level).

My recommendation of using a coarse sponge/Poret foam in your drip trays not only utilizes the trickling water and atmospheric oxygen, but also greatly increases your surface area - to a level beyond ceramic rings.

. I refer to biomedia as anything that grows bacteria. Which includes sand, rock, rings, pads etc etc. To me, there is no difference between liverock or bio rings. WHen both are submerged, they do the same thing. Live rock is just a name ppl use to charge more money for the same thing. Live rock and live rings are the same. Bacteria grows on both, but you wouldn't pay $7 a lb for live rings would ya? haha

This fundamental misunderstanding of the difference between live rock and ceramic rings is probably where the source of your confusion comes arises. Conversion of nitrates to nitrogen gas is performed by anaeorbic bacteria (bacteria that lives in areas void of any oxygen). As I stated in my earlier post, there are no environments in the aquarium where these bacteria can survive other than inside live rock, the bottom of a deep sand bed or in a coil denitrator.

Bio rings are completely different than live rock. Yes, they are both porous, allowing migration of water through the material. However, the high surface-to-volume ratio as well as higher porosity of the rings makes their very small interior an aerobic space - where anaerobic bacteria cannot survive. Hence - no denitrification in bio rings.

(Not that it matters all that much - see my comparison of reef to FW cichlid tanks above)

Also, oxygenation can be produced wih powerheads turning the surface of the water causing the exchange in gases.

Yes, you can introduce oxygen to water this way, but it will not have nearly the effect of the media directly exposed to the air as in the W/D.

Heres a post of why w/d aren't as "clean" but not referring to clarity

A lot of information pertaining to keeping of SW inverts - not at all applicable to keeping cichlids.

Stolen from mfk. This was regarding salt tanks, but the same holds true for fresh.

Nope. Totally different needs of the inhabitants; totally different goals for the filtration.

I'm no salt water expert, but if reefers use submerged media for corals and sensitive livestock, I'm pretty sure the method is safe with some hardy Africans

Again, apples-to-oranges.... and they don't use bio rings. Submerged bio-rings are every bit the "nitrate factories" that bioballs are.

Not saying that submerged media will not work; just saying that it will not work as well (or better as you claim) than a wet/dry system.

Think about it - there's probably a reason why 99% of F/W sumps utilize wet/dry filters.

If you want a totally quiet setup and don't believe that there are benefits to using a wet/dry system, get a canister. Simpler, cleaner and no possibility of a flood.

 

[verbal]

Another significant difference between saltwater and freshwater is the practicality and cost of water changes. Even adding Cichlid "salts" FW water changes are far cheaper.

 

[creepyoldguy]

Leave everything out of the equation, put lr or rings in a sump w constant flow your e.d result will be the same. I do.t care how technical you get, the bacteria doesn't care what its on

Talk about bio load on rings. I kept rays which produce one of the largest bio loads of all fw fish and I'm not talking teacups, fish that wouldn't even lay flat in a 125 on both w/d and submerged media. It took less than half the gallons of rings to keep the water perfect than it did a w/d

I do t care what the op does, your tank your fish but if you ed t the herbie you'll use submerged media snd its been proven in salt or fresh tank set ups

 

[Tony]

put lr or rings in a sump w constant flow your e.d result will be the same. I do.t care how technical you get, the bacteria doesn't care what its on

:confused0024:

I had hoped you had read my posts and understood the difference between aerobic bacteria and anaeorbic bacteria.

Guess not.

 

[UNCLERUCKUS]

why not just agree to disagree you two?

 

[Tony]

why not just agree to disagree you two?

Probably the best decision...

:sick0006: