Egg Tumbling / Fungus Issues....

[tremper]

I was able to observe 2 of my favorite fish spawn the other day and decided to strip and tumble to see how things went. Well, things went less than well.

The fish were a younger Labidochromis caeruleus Nkhata Bay ''White Lab" and a younger adult P. phenochilus Tanzania.

I stripped 12 eggs from the white lab and 60 or so from the Tanzania and threw them into my tumbler. It's been about a week or so and I can see eyes on a few of the eggs as well as some very tiny tails popping out on perhaps 10-15 eggs, the rest seem to have the dreaded fungus I've read about.

I'm heading out of town tomorrow through Friday and was curious as to what I can expect in the tumbler upon my return if I leave things as they are. Not sure how to go about separating the fungalled (sp?) eggs from the rest.

So yes, I should've could've waited another week and stripped upon my return, but I didn't. Lesson learned.

The question is, what could I have done to keep the eggs from getting the fungus. They're in a nice tumbler with a not too aggressive tumble but they are certainly far from stagnant.

 

[chriscoli]

I've been battling the same issue and haven't found much that's working for me. A few things that I have learned:

1. for me the tumbler makes the difference. I love the Egg Rocker. I've had horrible luck with the other DIY-style tumblers that have the screen on the bottom. I have many theories about why, but I don't think that's the focus of your thread so I won't go into it here. Sounds like you have one that you like.

2. disposable pipettes. I use them to suck out and discard the fungused eggs. A lot of mouthbrooders eggs are larger than the opening on the pipet, so use scissors to snip the tip off till the opening is the size you want. Then, throw them away when you're done so you don't spread the fungus. http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Trans...=1420397932&sr=8-1&keywords=disposable+pipets
I have a big box of them if you want to try them. Just remind me to
bring a few to the next meeting. They are really handy, too, if a fish freaks out at the net and spits eggs into the tank. You can easily suck them up one by one from the sand and put them into the tumbler. Usually just having my hand in the tank keeps the other fish away long enough to pick most of them up. They're also graduated, so they're awesome for dosing 1 or 2 ml of meds.

3. I tumble in the parent's tank. I've come to the conclusion that this is NOT a good idea. I'm planning to set up a separate small, clean isolation tank that I can tumble them in and sterilize between uses. It'll also allow me to add some of the more common antifungals (methylene blue, or alder cones, or banana leaves...whatever) since there's no way I could dose the parent's tank the way I want to for the eggs....just too much volume. My only hesitation with this sort of setup is that if you were to tumble just-fertilized eggs....how would the water chemistry or temperature difference between the parent's tank and the small isolation tank alter the developing larvae? For some fish, probably not much....but for others....it might make a huge difference.

 

[tremper]

Thanks for the response Christine.... *btw, I'm planning on being at the meeting on Sat pending a delayed or cancelled flight Friday eve, so if you held my food from the xmas food order that would be sweet of you.

1. I have the egg rocker. Sweet, efficient and simple, or so it seems.

2. As a former chem major I improvised using my kids bendy straws snipped down to 4-5".

3. Givin my travel schedule I'm actually trying to drop from 5 to 4 tanks. I have a very rocked 29g bare bottom that I am growing out some synos and plecos... it also house the tang Gobies I hope to move soon. This is where I'm tumbling. It's my only tank that gets a weekly water change. The others are heavily iunder stocked.

I think the easiest resolution for me is to simply wait a week to strip as once hatched I've no issues getting the vast majority of the fry to survive.

Thanks again.

 

[chriscoli]

Sounds like you've got it setup as best you can. I have heavy egg losses if I strip too early so I like to leave them be as long as I can, too.

I'll have your stuff at the meeting! If your flight gets you in too late, no biggie, we'll figure something out.

 

[npbarca]

Usually, I strip the mother after the eggs hatch. However, the mother was getting harassed pretty aggressively, so I had to strip the eggs. I didn't have a tumbler, so I improvised. I used a hang on net breeder with some sand in the middle. I put a bare airline in the sand, so that the eggs fall down towards the sand and then get tumbled by the air. I didn't expect it to work very well, but all roughly 30 survived and are now free swimming. No problems with the fungus.

 

[Localzoo]

Sounds like you've got it setup as best you can. I have heavy egg losses if I strip too early so I like to leave them be as long as I can, too.

I'll have your stuff at the meeting! If your flight gets you in too late, no biggie, we'll figure something out.

This has been my experience that's why I usually wait on stripping them. I believe Chris (olzkool) said the same thing when...stripping too early they aren't fertilized or seem attacked fungi...maybe not enough air to tumble them/moving around to keep free of fungus


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[zackcrack00]

I looked at a KG Tropicals YouTube video that showed me how to make a simple egg tumbler. I had about a 90-100% hatch rate depending on the batch. Siper cheap and simple. Not to mention easy!


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[Tony]

Good tips, Christine!

I have an egg tumbler, but even when I was in the peak of breeding Africans, didn't really use it all that often. Ended up using a separate 5 gallon tank with a piece of stryo floating on top. I used shot glasses to mark and cut out 8 holes on top and dropped in small tea strainers. I just had a small powerhead and air stone circulating water. I found that this was a lot easier to check on/pull fungused eggs out as well as make water changes or add chemicals.

For only a couple batches of eggs, this may not be worth it though.

Good luck, Joe!

 

[chriscoli]

Tony, I recall your setup....it was pretty awesome!

 

[CichlidAddict]

This has been my experience that's why I usually wait on stripping them. I believe Chris (olzkool) said the same thing when...stripping too early they aren't fertilized or seem attacked fungi...maybe not enough air to tumble them/moving around to keep free of fungus


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It's not always feasible to wait to strip. Some females are habitual egg eater or spitter. So waiting too long results in no eggs left, and stripping too early results in fungus out eggs. Too many Africans are now raised by artificial hatching that the holding instinct of females is gone.

 

[Tony]

Too many Africans are now raised by artificial hatching that the holding instinct of females is gone.

I've heard that theory before Andrew, but do not buy into it. I agree that some Malawi fish are not good at holding for term, but believe it has to do more with the stress and aggression related to the constrained nature of aquarium living and not something that has been "unlearned" over generations.

Wild caught fish will even be even less likely to hold to term... especially if they are captured as adults/sub-adults - where acclimation to tank life is more difficult.

Fish are, for the most part, very well "pre-programmed" to do their thing. Other than coming up to the top to eat or knowing good spots to hide, I don't think very fundamental behavior (breeding/mound building/raising fry) is something that is observed by other fish and picked up on. Yes, they get better with practice, but the original skill is imprinted in their DNA.

Just my $.02.

 

[Localzoo]

I've heard that theory before Andrew, but do not buy into it. I agree that some Malawi fish are not good at holding for term, but believe it has to do more with the stress and aggression related to the constrained nature of aquarium living and not something that has been "unlearned" over generations.

Wild caught fish will even be even less likely to hold to term... especially if they are captured as adults/sub-adults - where acclimation to tank life is more difficult.

Fish are, for the most part, very well "pre-programmed" to do their thing. Other than coming up to the top to eat or knowing good spots to hide, I don't think very fundamental behavior (breeding/mound building/raising fry) is something that is observed by other fish and picked up on. Yes, they get better with practice, but the original skill is imprinted in their DNA.

Just my $.02.

I agree but there is also something to be said for breeding fish and selecting traits like size, color, number of eggs...etc but not personalities like being good parents. But we may never know if we strip every batch.
I personally would feel discourage/stop breeding or eat my eggs if I never got to raise a batch or knew they wouldn't make it - what's the point right....Maybe I'm crazy?


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[CichlidAddict]

You will be surprised how fast fish can evolve in captive breeding. Most thick lips fish become thin lips within a few generations of domestication because the survival advantage of thick lips is gone. Mbuna survive on grazing algae in the wild, but domesticated Mbuna eat pellets and don't graze algae in tanks. Angel breeders routinely hatch eggs artificially because domesticated angels have evolved into bad parents. Fish don't remember bad parents, but selecting bad parents to produce youngs artificially will promote bad genes. In the wild, bad parents will not be able to procreate so their bad genes will come to a dead end.

 

[chriscoli]

I have to disagree. Not all mutations are equal, and not all changes are due to mutation. I have a hard time comparing the loss of a trait like thick lips to brood care instincts.

 

[lkelly]

I have to disagree. Not all mutations are equal, and not all changes are due to mutation. I have a hard time comparing the loss of a trait like thick lips to brood care instincts.

 

[CichlidAddict]

Yes, there is always a debate on nature versus nurture. Recent studies have shown that there is strong cross cultural to biological evolution changes, meaning that certain cultural environment can change the genes due to natural selection. There is no natural selection in fish tank culture, but strong artificial selection that mode the genes even faster.