Use of Sodium Thiosulfate Crystal

[Digital]

I've been spending a lot of money on water conditioners, and I started looking for cheaper alternatives. I came across an article on using sodium thiosulfate crystals. It seems like a very cheap and easy way to remove chlorine and chloramines for the non-stop water changing needs of a cichlid tank.

So, my question is if anyone ever use sodium thiosulfate crystals to dechlorinate their water?

Marlin

 

[chriscoli]

I have some and use it to dechlorinate things after they've gone through bleach (purigen pouches, for example). I like it for that purpose because you can make a strong solution cheaply.

I haven't used it to dechlorinate my tank water, though. I did read somewhere that it doesn't work well on chloramine, or perhaps I mis-read that.....anyone know their chemistry here?

 

[dogofwar]

Sodium Thiosulfate only removes chlorine (not chloramine).

I switched to Chloram-X some time ago (available at Kens) - it's a powder and a $60 container lasted me a couple of years (for a 50+ tank fishroom). I don't have chloramine but it works for both. Unfortunately Kens seems to be out of it. I prefer it over Safe (basically powdered Prime) because Chloram-X doesn't stink and is harder to overdose (allegedly - I've never overdosed Prime/Safe either).

Matt

 

[chriscoli]

I'm guessing that I mis-read.....seems sodium thiosulfate works on chloramines as well as long as you double the amount used.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine

Now here's my next question.....since breaking the Chloramine bond releases ammonia, and some dechlorinator brands (Amquel for example) have additives to bind that extra ammonia....how big of a deal is it if it's not captured? In a heavily planted tank It shouldn't be an issue, but it seems to me that a healthy bio filter would handle it just fine too.

Thoughts?

 

[chriscoli]

I have overdosed with prime, sadly. I don't recall the exact chemistry involved, but the end result causes a drop in O2 levels. I had a fish in a temporary tank on the floor, half-filled without any circulation or air bubbling (the surface area should have been more than enough for normal air exchange). I overdosed and by morning he was dead. Since then I've always left an air line bubbling in a temporary tank just in case.

 

[dogofwar]

Good article on it from Angelsplus: http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleChloramine.htm

You can use Sodium Thiosulfate on Chloramine but then you have to deal with the ammonia that is produced:

Removing Ammonia Separately: If you decide to use sodium thiosulfate to remove the chlorine and deal with ammonia on its own, then the following will explain what to try. Nitrifying bacteria will convert ammonia to non-toxic ammonium. If your biological filter is a good one and the fish load is not too high for the filter, it may be all you need. Its effectiveness will vary depending on pH and fish load. To find out if your filter can handle the ammonia load, get a good ammonia test kit, do small water changes and carefully observe what happens. Start out with 5% water changes and increase them 5% at a time, until you see that the ammonia level is stressing the fish. At the level you can observe stress, you should cut back about 10% on the amount of water changed. With this method, you will probably never be able to do more than 30-40% water changes. If you're restricted to a small percentage, then you will have to do water changes more frequently than you would otherwise. If stress is seen at all levels, you will have to increase your aeration and biological filtration or resort to chemical removal of ammonia. The best course of action to remove ammonia will depend on your water's pH, the amount of ammonia in the water, the fish load and the size and efficiency of your biological filter. In my opinion, most situations can be handled with sodium thiosulfate and separate ammonia removal. You can decrease fish loads, increase biological filtration and even go so far as to lower pH. Some go through the effort of adding large amounts of reverse osmosis water to lower pH. You can also increase filter efficiency by installing oversized, high flow rate trickle filters that expose water for optimum gas exchange and biological filtration. It's worth doing all this, not only to avoid chemical removal of ammonia, but because it generally provides better conditions for your fish. This results in faster growth, more color and more beautiful fish.

I'm guessing that I mis-read.....seems sodium thiosulfate works on chloramines as well as long as you double the amount used.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine

Now here's my next question.....since breaking the Chloramine bond releases ammonia, and some dechlorinator brands (Amquel for example) have additives to bind that extra ammonia....how big of a deal is it if it's not captured? In a heavily planted tank It shouldn't be an issue, but it seems to me that a healthy bio filter would handle it just fine too.

Thoughts?

 

[chriscoli]

http://www.seachem.com/support/forums/showthread.php?t=2803

Also a bit on overdosing with Prime (or any other dechlorinator). Apparently the all can be overdosed for the same reason. Prime says that this type of overdose would have to be at five times the emergency dose listed on the bottle.

 

[chriscoli]

Interestingly I also ran into a comment that if you were to add chlorinated water to a tank with high ammonia levels, you could end up producing chloramine! I wonder how often this really happens since most of us would be adding a good dechlorinator product at the same time.

 

[CichlidAddict]

Most cheap brand dechlorinizers are sodium thiosulfate concentrate. The brand I use is API Tap Water Conditioner selling for $5 for 16 oz bottle from Big Al. One bottle for me lasts several months to treat about 200 gal WC each week. It's cheap enough that there is no incentive for me to buy the cheaper crystals to make my own concentrate.

The acute toxicity of chloramine came mainly from the chlorine component, not the ammonia component. Once chlorine is neutralized, there won't be enough ammonia left to reach the acute toxicity level and in an established tank, BB will quickly digest the ammonia. So sodium thiosulfate can be used to treat chloramine water, provided that the tank has already been cycled with BB to take care of the residual ammonia. The API conditioner label says that it can be used to treat chloramine water by using double the dosage for chlorine only water.

 

[dogofwar]

Very interesting!

Having only chlorine makes things simple...and agitating the water as it enters the tank more than likely dissipates most of the chlorine. But I use de-chlor anyway.

Matt

Interestingly I also ran into a comment that if you were to add chlorinated water to a tank with high ammonia levels, you could end up producing chloramine! I wonder how often this really happens since most of us would be adding a good dechlorinator product at the same time.

 

[Digital]

Thanks all for the great feedback. I think I might give it a try. I did the math, and at my current water change rate if I double dose I will have enough to last me 3 years. That's $1 per year for chlorine removal.

Marlin



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[CichlidAddict]

Good article on it from Angelsplus: http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleChloramine.htm[\QUOTE]

The recommended experiment in the article is too complicated, and it is too risky to experiment on your priceless fish.

A much simpler experiment is to run a bioassay test on your disposable fish in a separate tank. Here is what I did in my former residence when the water treatment was switched to chloramine. I threw in a few surplus fry into an established 10 gal tank, did variable amount of water change, added variable dosage of dechlor and refilled directly with tap water to see if the fry survived. What I found is that my fry survived indefinitely with as much as 99% WC with the recommended dosage of dechlor. But if I used no dechlor or underdosage, the fry will die in 5 min. Using fry for experiment is best because they are the most sensitive population so if they survive, adult fish will. The dechlor I used was API Tap Water Conditioner that contains sodium thiosulfate only, proving that I don't need to neutralize the residual ammonia. Since your situation may be different, you may want to run your own experiment.

 

[chriscoli]

So, another question I have is this.....I've heard that once made into solution, sodium thiosulfate doesn't last long.

How long does it last? why does it lose it's potency? It's one of the main reasons I don't use the big sodium thiosulfate crystals....I don't want to have to weigh crystals and mix up a fresh batch every time I do a waterchange (yes, I'm lazy).

 

[dogofwar]

Yes - much simpler just to drop a pinch of Chloram-X or Safe into each tank before re-filling

Matt

 

[Digital]

Yes - much simpler just to drop a pinch of Chloram-X or Safe into each tank before re-filling

Matt

I've been waiting for ken's do get chloramx in stock for about 5 months. Know where else I can buy it?

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[dogofwar]

Not sure. I just ordered some Safe in the meantime...

Hard to beat the free shipping from Ken's, especially for something as heavy as that!

Matt

 

[mchambers]

Try Jehmco

I've been waiting for ken's do get chloramx in stock for about 5 months. Know where else I can buy it?

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I just use Safe, but Jehmco lists Chloram-X. Safe is cheap enough that I don't feel the need to try sodium thiosulfate, even though I am a cheapskate by nature.

 

[chriscoli]

I think also, many of these powdered products have a grain size that's small enough to dissolve nearly instantly when you put it in your tank.....which is a good thing if you're filling with tap water at the same time.

Sodium Thiosulfate crystals (at least the ones I have) are big....maybe an 1/8 of an inch wide by 1/4 of an inch long at the largest. They dissolve quickly, but not as fast as the powdered products. So, you'd have to prep a solution ahead of time.

 

[toddnbecka]

I've been using the crystals for years, ever since the relatively local manufacturer stopped making/selling it in bottles. I don't have chloramine in my tap water, and only make a new batch (enough refill the old dropper bottle) when it's empty, typically a few times yearly, and have never had any problems with it. I bought some on e-bay, have nearly enough to fill a 5 lb NLS bucket, more than I'll ever use for anything imaginable. Cost me around $5 shipped if I remember correctly.