I hope your not shopping at the club auctions, group buys, or other hobbyists. The LFS need that money
This is why I hate Petco and other chain pet shops(Sorry for long read)
- Thread starter johnscottant
- Start date
I hope your not shopping at the club auctions, group buys, or other hobbyists. The LFS need that money
dogofwar
CCA Members
I think that reality is that LFS play a much smaller role in our hobby than they did when, for example, I was beginning as a fishkeeper (early-mid '80s).
LFS were relatively exclusive sources for aquarium fish (i.e. didn't have to compete with big box stores), so they competed with each other on selection, service, and (yes) price. I learned to keep fish from a couple of LFS and the really advanced hobbyists who owned / managed / worked at them. Short of being a cute girl, you couldn't get hired at (most) LFS if you weren't a competent hobbyist. Stores gained (good or bad) reputations based on the health of their fish and the quality of advice. Stores worked closely with local clubs to promote local fish club events and the hobby more broadly. They were part of the community.
That all really fell apart with the advent and dominance of big box stores. Neighborhood LFS simply cannot compete with them on price....but they tried (and mostly lost). A few LFS remain, but their relative scarcity has made them less a fixture of just about every neighborhood shopping center and (the ones that remain) more of a destination.
The big losers in the demise of LFS (other than the small businesses themselves) are the generations of people who keep fish who haven't had the benefit of a local fish store to hold their hands in learning the basics of being a hobbyist: the folks at Jacks Aquarium and Tropical House and Pet Hut, etc. who endured way too many questions from me...but ultimately made sure that I was buying the right equipment and fish before I left their stores. Who wouldn't let me buy the wrong mix of African cichlids. Or a pacu. Or do 99% of the stuff that is indicative of beginning fishkeepers not getting sound advice from experienced folks.
So, where does that leave us and the hobby?
Well, people can happen onto the random actual hobbyist who happens to being working the pet/fish department at a Mart Store. Or try to learn online.
Or better yet, I think, is a mentoring role for new aquarists in fish clubs (like ours).
The question is: How do we get people interested in keeping fish involved in the club earlier (i.e. when they would have asked questions / received mentoring at their LFS to get started on the right track) and providing services (education / programs / etc.) that are useful and interesting to them (I'm interested in the 99 different shades of red / orange / yellow of Thoricthys...but are 99% of hobbyists?).
I don't have the answers...but I'd love ideas
Sorry for the dragging on!
Matt
LFS were relatively exclusive sources for aquarium fish (i.e. didn't have to compete with big box stores), so they competed with each other on selection, service, and (yes) price. I learned to keep fish from a couple of LFS and the really advanced hobbyists who owned / managed / worked at them. Short of being a cute girl, you couldn't get hired at (most) LFS if you weren't a competent hobbyist. Stores gained (good or bad) reputations based on the health of their fish and the quality of advice. Stores worked closely with local clubs to promote local fish club events and the hobby more broadly. They were part of the community.
That all really fell apart with the advent and dominance of big box stores. Neighborhood LFS simply cannot compete with them on price....but they tried (and mostly lost). A few LFS remain, but their relative scarcity has made them less a fixture of just about every neighborhood shopping center and (the ones that remain) more of a destination.
The big losers in the demise of LFS (other than the small businesses themselves) are the generations of people who keep fish who haven't had the benefit of a local fish store to hold their hands in learning the basics of being a hobbyist: the folks at Jacks Aquarium and Tropical House and Pet Hut, etc. who endured way too many questions from me...but ultimately made sure that I was buying the right equipment and fish before I left their stores. Who wouldn't let me buy the wrong mix of African cichlids. Or a pacu. Or do 99% of the stuff that is indicative of beginning fishkeepers not getting sound advice from experienced folks.
So, where does that leave us and the hobby?
Well, people can happen onto the random actual hobbyist who happens to being working the pet/fish department at a Mart Store. Or try to learn online.
Or better yet, I think, is a mentoring role for new aquarists in fish clubs (like ours).
The question is: How do we get people interested in keeping fish involved in the club earlier (i.e. when they would have asked questions / received mentoring at their LFS to get started on the right track) and providing services (education / programs / etc.) that are useful and interesting to them (I'm interested in the 99 different shades of red / orange / yellow of Thoricthys...but are 99% of hobbyists?).
I don't have the answers...but I'd love ideas
Sorry for the dragging on!
Matt
fischfan13
Banned
Matt, if I could add my 2 cents...
Many lfs are afraid nowadays to get involved with local fish clubs. They see clubs as an outlet for people to buy fish at a much cheaper price, and also an outlet to trade not only fish but dry goods as well...potentially leaving them in the dark.
Stores like HOT, The Hidden Reef (Pa) and The Pet Shanty (NJ) have taken the approach of not only embracing the clubs but donating as well. In return these stores get the club member into their store, which ends up getting on forums like this one and ECC thru word of mouth adding onto their customer base.
Many lfs are afraid nowadays to get involved with local fish clubs. They see clubs as an outlet for people to buy fish at a much cheaper price, and also an outlet to trade not only fish but dry goods as well...potentially leaving them in the dark.
Stores like HOT, The Hidden Reef (Pa) and The Pet Shanty (NJ) have taken the approach of not only embracing the clubs but donating as well. In return these stores get the club member into their store, which ends up getting on forums like this one and ECC thru word of mouth adding onto their customer base.
johnscottant
Members
Some of us don't have lfs and petco is the closest place for me when I'm in a pinch. And at that point I was. The aclc club in a member us has great raffles and auctions where you can get great fish foods for amazing prices. I rarely run out but with the influx of new tanks and fish I've purchased I needed to get more foods quickly. Online is definitely a great way to go too.
dogofwar
CCA Members
Great points, Bill - I think a difference is that (back in the day) most communities had multiple LFS of the size and scope of HOT, Hidden Reef oe Pet Shanty.
Now, they're (rightfully) destinations (for new and experienced hobbyists alike). And we (as hobbyists and clubs) should do what we can to ensure their continued survival (success!)... I just wish I had some in my neighborhood (RIP Tropical Fish World and Scales)!
The LFS / club dynamic can be a difficult one, especially in a period of economic downturn (like now). In the end, more hobbysists and more successful hobbyists are a good thing for both. That said, I'm not willing to pay double for NLS or an air pump (than online). But I will pick up supplies, meds, etc. that I need right away. Or cool trade in fish
I happened to be at an LFS near me (one that I'd classify as not-particularly club friendly - although they do allow us to post CCA cards and event announcements) when someone (evidently from one of the local clubs) called and asked about the plecos that they have in stock. The guy running the store rattled off a bunch (9-10 or so) of L number plecos and the prices...a pause..."Yeah, just those ten kinds..."..."Sorry, can't do that"...and hung up." He lamented to the guy working there, "Some lady just called and asked what kinds of plecos we have. I told her all of the fancy plecos we have - even gave her the proper names. And what she wanted was something different than the 10 kinds we have. And she wanted us to match the online price from somewhere. Really!".
That's why LFS struggle with advanced hobbyists.
Matt
Now, they're (rightfully) destinations (for new and experienced hobbyists alike). And we (as hobbyists and clubs) should do what we can to ensure their continued survival (success!)... I just wish I had some in my neighborhood (RIP Tropical Fish World and Scales)!
The LFS / club dynamic can be a difficult one, especially in a period of economic downturn (like now). In the end, more hobbysists and more successful hobbyists are a good thing for both. That said, I'm not willing to pay double for NLS or an air pump (than online). But I will pick up supplies, meds, etc. that I need right away. Or cool trade in fish
I happened to be at an LFS near me (one that I'd classify as not-particularly club friendly - although they do allow us to post CCA cards and event announcements) when someone (evidently from one of the local clubs) called and asked about the plecos that they have in stock. The guy running the store rattled off a bunch (9-10 or so) of L number plecos and the prices...a pause..."Yeah, just those ten kinds..."..."Sorry, can't do that"...and hung up." He lamented to the guy working there, "Some lady just called and asked what kinds of plecos we have. I told her all of the fancy plecos we have - even gave her the proper names. And what she wanted was something different than the 10 kinds we have. And she wanted us to match the online price from somewhere. Really!".
That's why LFS struggle with advanced hobbyists.
Matt
Shane
Members
Great postings above Matt.
This was really the secondary cause of death for the independent store. The chain stores undersold them on goods and the advent of the internet took away the value associated with their relative level of "expertise."
Why would anyone associate a monetary value with fish store employee advice when, via the internet and e-mail, they can quickly get direct information from acknowledged experts around the world?
-Cal
This was really the secondary cause of death for the independent store. The chain stores undersold them on goods and the advent of the internet took away the value associated with their relative level of "expertise."
Why would anyone associate a monetary value with fish store employee advice when, via the internet and e-mail, they can quickly get direct information from acknowledged experts around the world?
-Cal
dogofwar
CCA Members
Online has certainly replaced some of the advice that one would have received (pre-Internet and pre-decline of the LFS) in-person in the past.
I would argue that there's a lot of info out there online (some good and some...not so much) but what's missing, I believe, is the hand-holding / mentoring that came from hanging out at the local LFS. Watching and learning, asking questions, etc.
What I find interesting - and I'd love to hear folks' ideas - is how OUR CLUB can help fill some of the role that the neighborhood LFS used to...
Ideas?
Matt
I would argue that there's a lot of info out there online (some good and some...not so much) but what's missing, I believe, is the hand-holding / mentoring that came from hanging out at the local LFS. Watching and learning, asking questions, etc.
What I find interesting - and I'd love to hear folks' ideas - is how OUR CLUB can help fill some of the role that the neighborhood LFS used to...
Ideas?
Matt
Aperper
Members
OK, you asked Matt. I'm pretty new to Cichlids, though I've had tropical community tanks for years. It can be a bit daunting to dive into a very different variety of fish keeping without some support, like I sometimes can get from my LFS. And some folks, like myself, feel a bit awkward asking newbie questions from very experienced keepers in the club. Perhaps a newbie section of the Forum where very basic questions could be posted and experienced folks could respond. Or perhaps a CCA meeting where part of the meeting is devoted to Cichlid keeping 101. Even a non-meeting get together for less experienced folks and a few more seasoned pros to answer questions and give advice or hold hands on demo. Suggestion: a hands on demo/presentation on fish tank photography.
I love this hobby and would like to become as adept as possible. I use the internet, this forum (and others), and an LFS that is pretty savvy about Cichlids for my info gathering. Having some additional, club-sponsored sources would be even better. thanks for askin'
The club could open up a store
dogofwar
CCA Members
lonlangione
Members
As a former owner of a LFS I would like to throw my two cents in here. I blame the demise of the LFS on one thing and that is Premium Dog and Cat foods. When I first started my store I only carried fish and fish supplies. Then after a few months I added small animal, bird, dog cat etc. supplies. After a year in business the Iams, Nutro Max Science Diet salesman started showing up at my door to carry their foods. I looked at it and decided to go for it. I was the first shop in York to carry premium pet foods. It took off like a rocket. We were selling this stuff hand over fist. I went from grossing $3,000.00 a week to 10,000.00 to 20,000.00 + in a matter of a year. We really didn't do much with this stuff but unload it, sell it and carry it to the customers car. All of the companies said they would never sell to the grocery stores, only to pet shops. Add that to the list, ie. the check is in the mail, I won't, well you know the rest. The grocery stores were hurting because of the impact that we were having on their most profitable aisle in the store. So now comes the super stores opened by the companies that were behind the grocery store industry. At my peak, I was grossing $850,000 - 900.000 a year. Super store came along and WAM, I'm back to doing $200,000.00 and decreasing business. A Wal Mart opened near my store. We had people coming in asking questions about their fish and even bringing in sick fish. We would go over with them what they needed to do and they would walk out the door. This went on for about 3 days till my manager one day said, wait don't you want the medicine. The reply. No the guy at Wal MArt sent me over to find out what was wrong and now I'm going back there to by the medicine. Then you have companies / wholesalers buying up manufacturers like crazy. Now wholesalers are dropping like flys. And the manufacturers that wouldn't sell out, Hagen, could not get their products into these new wholesalers. So they went direct. So in short thank the premium pet food market is responsible for trashing the LFS / LPS. I competed against That Fish Place for 14 years and didn't have any trouble. The super stores, another story. Thanks for listening to my rant...... A former LFS owner who still gives a sh+t.
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verbal
CCA Members
I think food is the worst part of not having a LFS as a customer. Equipment I can get online and there are definitely plenty of fish available through fish clubs/auctions. I can get live or frozen food in group orders, but it would be a lot better to be able to stop in at a LFS every week or two to pick up some food. I don't think a pet store could support themselves on food sales alone, but it is a good way to get them in the door.
one thing i can say at petsmart is that petsmart carries the most popular known fish that new people want to buy. (neons glofish etc) but our prices are so LOW that it it even hurts us that we are selling them. (last week saw glofish at a LFS 1-$12 0r 3-$30) but petsmart has them on sale for $3 each. people buy these cheap fish and have no problems easily spending more money on supplies. during the month we have our $1 fish sale at petsmart we easily have a huge increase in our fish supplies like food cleaning supplies chemicals etc
AndyNarwhal
Members
Funny how a glowfish is $10-$12 but a zebra danio (the fish on which the glowfish is based) sells for $.50.
I realize the investment in creating the glow fish was high, but those costs were paid off well before the glowfish ever entered the aquarium hobby (when it was still a fish used for laboratory experiments).
Goes to show how valuable a patent really is.
Andy
I realize the investment in creating the glow fish was high, but those costs were paid off well before the glowfish ever entered the aquarium hobby (when it was still a fish used for laboratory experiments).
Goes to show how valuable a patent really is.
Andy
Mikeinco
Members
I have to laugh when I hear one of their associates explaining something to newby. Its all smoke and mirrors to disguise the fact that most of them know nothing about fish.
Gokuson4
Members
OMG!!!
Lets just go and buy all and resell them..LMAO!!
Lets just go and buy all and resell them..LMAO!!
Do these look like Jack Dempsey to you?? LOL
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andrew1002
Members
Ya I hate petco! Not petsmart as much as my local petsmart is awesome! But I went to petco to return my dead (from illness) Oscar and blue gourami. I know they died from illness as the other Oscar survived and is thriving and a jack Dempsey I got from the same tank also is doing fine! So I bring back the fish and I go to get replacement fish and the guy I usually talk to and he's usually really nice is talking to some guy who he knows out of work (I know as he was talking to him cursing and being a douche and he knew his name and everything) and I walk up and wait for them to finish their gossip lol. So I go and I'm like can I get some fish? Then he goes "wait are these the ones you bought two nights ago?" I'm like yeah they died and I want replacements. He proceeds to say how he won't give me any fish until I bring a water sample. He does all this with the guy watching him so he acts all alpha and tough. Lol. Then I tell him how the others are fine and they are in a seperate tank. Then I say ill put them in my cory tank. Then he is like get outta her I'm not giving you any fish!. Then he laughs! I tell him go f itself and how I'm not buying from him again. This guy is always nice and chill but he felt the need to act tough and all alpha male lmao. But people at these chain stores have little to no experience with any fish! It makes me so mad! I had to inform the new guy that African cichlids can't go with jack dempseys! He is like u know more than me Lmfao I hate petco!
-Andrew
-Andrew
