• You liked BFD7 now you should join this forum and of course become a club member to see what CCA is all about.
  • Thank you to everyone who registered and showed up for the BIG Fish Deal #7.

pH and the Nitrogen Cycle

chriscoli

Administrator
I have a tank that I've been having a bit of trouble with lately....and had an epiphany this evening about what may be contributing to my problems.

Here's the situation: I have a tank rack with 16, 10 and 15 gallon tanks, all filtered with HMFs, and until now, they've been rock solid and seem to handle whatever nastiness comes their way. I have one 10 gal tank (with one pair of Pelvicachromis and a handful of fry) that keeps having both bacterial bloom and issues with a successful nitrogen cycle. I've re-seeded the filter from other tanks, I've given it more frequent waterchanges and I even (gasp) added various bacterial products to it. But still every few days I walk by and see the female Pelvicachromis swimming in one place mid-water, staring straight ahead with fins clamped. When I test for nitrites or ammonia....one or the other is usually present when she gets this way. And, of course, I notice this at the worst possible moment for doing a waterchange (coat on and husband already waiting in the car...) so I find myself frequently having to throw in some Amquel to bind up the nasty stuff till I can do a waterchange. She improves within minutes of adding the Amquel, so I think it is the ammonia that's bugging her.

I've been pondering what makes this tank different, and that's when I had my epiphany. I've been trying to push the pH and hardness of this tank down to see if I could influence the gender ratio of the fry, so it's been getting a good dose of RO during waterchanges. I usually mix 50/50 dechlorinated tap and RO, and if I have enough RO left, this tank gets a little more. In general, I'm not usually successful moving my tap water's pH, so I had assumed it had moved in the direction of 7 but not much past it....like the other tanks were doing. I checked this evening and apparently I've made it well into the low to mid 6's, and I also noticed that the alkalinity is waaaay low, too. (Probably should fix that as well....)

So then I recalled all those times in the past when we've had speakers come and talk about keeping the occasional fish (usually some special fussy dwarf cichlid from the Amazon) in the 4 to 5 pH zone. They've all thrown in the warning that biological filtration gets weird at low pH.......and now I'm kicking myself for not paying more attention. I did a quick google search, and it seems that our usual nitrogen cycle players start to get a bit sluggish around pH 6.5. I wonder if that's what's contributing to my problem. (Slow nitrogen cycle + extra food for the fry = accumulated ammonia).

Has anyone kept fish at low pH, and what did you do to compensate? Did anyone do a better job of listening to our speakers on this topic than me?
 
Last edited:

jonclark96

Past CCA President
Interesting question, Christine. I remember the same discussion about how low pH slows down the nitrogen cycle, but don't remember anyone recommending much more than frequent water changes (maybe this is why discus keepers change water daily?).
 

chriscoli

Administrator
Thanks Matt, I was reading the same thing about toxicity. I think that's why Discus Hans pointed out that it's bad to take a fish that's been bagged for a long time (days) and add tank water to the bag to acclimate it.....you can convert non-toxic ammonium back to über toxic ammonia.

I was also reading that the nitrogen cycle can suffer if the alkalinity is too low....so I need to work on bringing that back up a little too, I think.
 

Tony

Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
I was going to say the same thing about the buildup of CO2 (and lowering if pH) in a fish bag lowering ammonia toxicity.

Several of my tanks get mostly RO water changes and tons of leaves and I haven't had any (noticeable) problems. I haven't tested in a while, but the pH in my pleco and apisto tanks was +/-6.0 last time I checked.

I want to say that comments on the nitrogen fixing bacteria slowing were more geared towards super-low pH... more like bubble-nest builders in SE Asia. pH in the mid 4s, etc.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Chris discussed the challenge of establishing enough (and the right kinds) of nitrifiers at low pH, especially really low pH.

Ammonia is indeed much less toxic at lower pH.

I struggle to reconcile the amount of crud in Poret filters and keeping them in tanks for months at a time, realtively uncleaned. I use the most coarse Poret and it still accumulates massive amounts of stuff in it. I periodically pull it out (in a plastic bag) and dunk in a bucket of water...but it's still a PITA...

Matt
 

chriscoli

Administrator
Aaaaah lets not turn this into another pointless discussion about your filter cleaning preferences, Matt. I'll ask to close this thread if you do.
 
I believe I alluded to this in my presentation. I believe the nitrogen cycle uses alkalinity as part of the chemical reaction to oxidize nitrogen from NH4 to NO3.

My nitrate filter uses a different chemical reaction that in the end creates free N2 gas and bicarbonate which is why my pH does not budge.
2 Step process: Nitrate -> Nitrite -> N2 gas
6NO3- + 5CH3OH -> 3N2 + 5CO2 + 7H2O + 6OH
OH−*+ CO2**-> HCO3− Here is the Bicarbonate reaction from the above results


---WARNING - Prepare to have eyes glaze over ---

To get to the NH4 we need to start with an intermediate NH3 which strips off a hydroxide (OH) from a bicarbonate ion (HCO3) (remember pH decreases with nitrification)

In solution, exposed to air, the hydroxide ion reacts rapidly with atmospheric carbon dioxide, acting as an acid, to form, initially, the bicarbonate ion.
OH− + CO2 is in equilibrium with HCO3−
The equilibrium constant for this reaction can be specified either as a reaction with dissolved carbon dioxide or as a reaction with carbon dioxide gas (see carbonic acid for values and details). At neutral or acid pH, the reaction is slow, but is catalyzed by the enzyme carbonic anhydrase, which effectively creates hydroxide ions at the active site. this is the reason nitrification slows then stops based on pH. Kind of funny how toxicity on ammonia is much lower when the system is unable to oxidize it to nitrate... funny is a Darwinian way.
 
Last edited:

dogofwar

CCA Members
My point is that decomposing organic waste can reduce buffering capacity and do strange things with pH.

Aaaaah lets not turn this into another pointless discussion about your filter cleaning preferences, Matt. I'll ask to close this thread if you do.
 

Localzoo

Board of Directors
Off topic but sort of related was researching what doug wrote and found an interesting article. it talks about activated sludge and its benefit to the nitrogen cycle...it's used in water treatment plants around the world, the sponge contains ciliated protozoas so it could be a lack of infusoria to control/eat bacteria when they bloom. Just thought it was an interesting read.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3464382/


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
Activated sludge is dead technology and almost all waste water treatment plants have migrated off of it. This is what was being used for nitrate reduction before they all went to methanol which itself is dated. The current technology is glycerine (MicroC) made as a byproduct of biodiesel. They used this for the carbon source (vodka/methanol/sugar water) but it leave too much solid waste at the end.
 

Localzoo

Board of Directors
Activated sludge is dead technology and almost all waste water treatment plants have migrated off of it. This is what was being used for nitrate reduction before they all went to methanol which itself is dated. The current technology is glycerine (MicroC) made as a byproduct of biodiesel. They used this for the carbon source (vodka/methanol/sugar water) but it leave too much solid waste at the end.

I know about the micro-c as a carbon source it was in one of your other threads. Just thought the article was interesting because it made me think if you over clean your tank you don't have your "activated sludge" your removing good and bad micro organisms.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
Top