Holes In Head On New Fish

[phishphorphun]

I recently received a fish gift. I noticed the Aulonocara Lwanda had some unusual pigmentation on the head when I first got it. It was still in its pale coloration and I didn't pay close attention to it. Well since it has settled in, and got it's color, I tried taking some photos of it. That's when I noticed that the spots on the head, are craters. I never had a peacock that had this before. Can anyone explain?

 

[maddog10]

I didn't notice that before (probably because his color was always so washed out).
Keep an eye on him, it is probably HITH, it may or may not go away. Sorry about that. It wont effect any of the other fish.
Prior to being put in the 10 gallon (for his own good), he was in a community 75 with other male peacocks and haps. He was beaten up on a regular basis.

On the brighter side of things, his color sure has changed!

 

[phishphorphun]

Yeah, you could see some pimpley looking spots when he was pale. But not that noticable.

Yep, got some color...

Looks like he took a real beating on that split caudal too.

 

[cyradis4]

I've heard that hole in the head can be related to several things, including diet. If a fish has too much of one thing (like protein or lack of it) he will sometimes develop it. Some people also say that it can be related to water quality. I've also heard that it can be related to parasites or bacteria.

I've only seen it once or twice on Angels (hole in the head, that is) and there was only the one hole...... But I did get a rescue at one point who's face looked a lot like that one's...... What might have happened is he got the crap kicked out of him and became stressed. I DO know that when a Koi type Angel (who has lots of orange) is very stressed it will use up the orange (which is stored beta carrotine) to increase their immune response. Perhaps what has happened is in using up something like beta carrotine the fish has created a vitamin imbalance that led to hole in the head..... Just a guess. You might wanna try feeding him some sorta vitamin supplement, or a very varied died, or vegetables, and see what happens!

Hope this helps!
Amanda.

 

[longstocking]

WOW that's crazy ! I know oscars and such are prone... but never seen an African with it.

Don't really have anything usefull to say though :lol: What's new !

 

[animicrazy]

From my experience:

* Love salt

* Metronidazole (if it were a South American - first choice)

* Kanamycin Sulfate as an anti bacterial treatment (ditto above)

* If it's a big enough fish - administer above + what Amanda said - via intra oral injection with a blunt tip plastic syringe (have it if you want it)

* If the fish is too small for above - put feeder fish or large brine shrimp in a bowl of the above mentioned swill and use the "live" delivery method.

Disclaimer: This is what works for me. (might want to consider Praziquantel; could be a parasite issue)

Hope it works out for you - whatever you end up using - please post what worked/killed the fish so I can learn.

Thanks,

Paul.

 

[phishphorphun]

Well, I didn't want to have to nurse another Lwanda. I saved one before that I got for free from the Aquarium Center a few years ago. He turned out to be a beauty too. This one has better color than the old one. So I moved it to another tank today (20L) and started my "fix all" double salt treatment. I never use meds.

Here is the before and after with the last one.

Before...

After...

 

[marge618]

Salt? Maybe it would help if you include a bit more detail. I'm not sure how salt can make such a big difference. The before and after fish pictures look like to entirely different fish (?)
Later,
Marge

 

[cyradis4]

Salt does a number of things. First, it helps a stressed fish breath. I think it also might help with oxygen obsorbtion in the blood. It will also de-toxify Nitrites. But the BIG thing is that its a mild antibiotic for fish. And at certain high concentration levels, it stops ALL bacterial activity. Thats why certain fish ailments (like ick) are so very rarely seen in Tangs or Malawis. Most people keep at least a little salt in those kindsa tanks, and it keeps a lot of bacterial stuff at bay. It can also kill or help remove external parasites.

But you have to be CAREFUL sometimes with it. For instance, at the salt concentration level that will stop all bacterial activity, most South American fish can only LIVE for up to two weeks in that water. Malawi's and Tangs can probably live in it for a VERY long time, and thats because, unlike the South American fish, the Africans have salt naturally occurring in their habitat.

And you can only use NON-iodized salt. Table salt kills fish. Use it only for cooking them.

Salt also is the safest "med" you can use for fish. It doesn't really stress their livers, and it can help with just about everything.

Bobby: I think the salt treatment is the way to go. And his post on Meds notwithstanding, salt is almost all of what dad uses except in cases of Hexamita, which I don't think Africans are prone to. But if a Discus gets stressed (like in shipping) they will often break out in a case of Hex and Metro is the best way to solve that particular problem.....

Later!
Amanda.

PS: Salt does this because water has a number of REALLY weird properties and so does salt. Molecular weird. Those Mikey Mouse ears of good ol' water molecules are a real wonder.......

 

[phishphorphun]

I have been using Instant Ocean in my water since day one when I started keeping African cichlids. That's about twenty years. And I have always used extra salt (Instant Ocean) when I feel the fish needed a little medical attention. Seems to be a safe additive to the water and some of it stays in the tank as the water evaporates.

Marge, it's the same fish.

 

[animicrazy]

Amanda: What have you been smoking???

Bobby ?: Please keep us posted.

Paul.

 

[longstocking]

ok just want to clarify one thing amanda said.... all the info was very good and accurate except for one part. Salt is not naturally occuring in the african lakes. Now she might have just meant this generally but, MINERALS are naturally occuring.... meaning your gh.

It's kind of nit picking... but a lot of people over emphasize salt in a tank IMO. Salt for medical reasons is great though When we talk about minerals it's all the minerals ....which your tap water already has some of them to a degree. We happen to live in an area with a low gh for the post part. Not normal for most of the country (this is just what I have observed from being a mod not actual data) ... so salt probably helps us out more than most.

 

[DeeCee]

Used to use Metro for Hole in the Head with Discus, but that's the only experience I've ever had with it, and it was long, long ago...

DC

 

[cyradis4]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (longstocking @ Feb 17 2008, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

ok just want to clarify one thing amanda said.... all the info was very good and accurate except for one part. Salt is not naturally occuring in the african lakes. Now she might have just meant this generally but, MINERALS are naturally occuring.... meaning your gh.[/b]

Lol....... what do you think salt IS? its crystallized minerals! So when they dissolve in your tanks, you are adding MINERALS to your water...... AND sulfates. Take a look at the different kindsa salt. There is Magnesium salt (epson salts), calcium salt, sodium salts (table salt), and LOTS AND LOTS of others. Basically, salt is a mineral which is solidified using a binding compound.

From Wickipedia (its right on the money this time):
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

"A salt, in chemistry, is defined as the product formed from the neutralisation reaction of acids and bases. Salts are ionic compounds composed of cations (positively charged ions) and anions (negative ions) so that the product is electrically neutral (without a net charge). These component ions can be inorganic such as chloride (Cl−), as well as organic such as acetate (CH3COO−) and monoatomic ions such as fluoride (F−), as well as polyatomic ions such as sulfate (SO42−)."[/b]

This link shows epson salt benefits in humans: Epson Salts in Humans

Calcium and Magnesium are what you add to increase general hardness. A few others too, but those are the main ones. I could go into all the chemical mumbo jumbo, but I'm tired and don't feel like it. But there are ways to precipitate the sulfates out. And there are other salts that use other binding components. Take Calcium Chloride. When IT dissolves, it adds both calcium and chlorine to the water. The chlorine is easily removed, leaving water with a higher calcium content.

And while the lakes may or may not have many sulfates, as you said, the MINERAL components of salts are seen in the lake.

Sorry to lecture, but I HATE chemistry and know more then I really want to about it.

Later!
Amanda.

 

[longstocking]

I know salt is a mineral I took college chemistry :spanka: I didn't like it either :lol: But... I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I was trying to point out that by adding salt you are not copying the lake exactly. As the gh readings that they have taken are many types of minerals not just the ones that are in salt. Most test kits do not tell you what minerals they are reading just how much

When you add salt... yes you are bringing the gh up... but the gh make up isn't the same in your tank as it is in the lake if you do this. Infact... I have seen some very BAD side affects from adding salt into a tang tank. Depending on your tap water it can cause some crazy things ! Small amounts are probably good... but I know some people that have had VERY low readings and put so much salt in their tank it wasn't good for their fish.... and it showed.

 

[cyradis4]

Agreed, and sorry I misinterpreted it..... I've seen SO many people (no one in mind right now) who don't really know what they are talking about, science wise, and I feel it best to correct those mistakes anytime I think they might be made. And water chemistry is a really nasty one..... A LOT more coplicated then your average person realizes. And I probably should have been more specific in my original post. A simptom of having The Mad Scientist for a father, and a grandfather who was trained as an engineer, and being an engineer myself.

But glad someone agrees with me on Chemistry!!!! My best friend LOVES the stuff......

And I'm not surprised people mess up fish with salt. Part of the problem is that there are SO MANY salts out there, and the topic is usually badly understood, and HOW you add them is also, in some cases, as important as WHAT you add. For instance, if you put Calcium Sulfate directly into your tanks, you get Calcium and Sulfate and the fish should be fine. If you put Calcium Chloride directly into your tanks, you end up, very likely, with dead fish. So while Calcium Chloride is probably healthier for the fish (more natural, at any rate) as Chlorine, if not removed, will evaporate, while sulfates stay in the water (I believe), if you don't know much about different salts you could end up cooking your fish (literally!) as with Chlorides its a chemical reaction that produces LOTS and LOTS of heat. A lot like how heat packs work, now that I think about it, but I'm not sure if they actually use a salt, or something else. And I don't even want to THINK about Calcium Fluoride......

And, like you said, many people seem to think one salt is very like another. I've been adding Cichlid Lake salts by Seachem to my Malawi tanks for the minerals. They were supposed to have gone to Lake Tang and Malawi and done the tests to see what was actually in the water. I have next to NO minerals in my tap water (yup, I checked it out). Instant Ocean is very similar to the Cichlid Lake salts, but the proportion of salts is different in it, though not by a lot.

I still remember when I had an old GH test kit reading 0.... I had just started keeping Malawis and Dad invited his bio-chemist friend over. They staged a raid on Rite Aid and came home with all KINDSA stuff to modify the water... Rolaids, Tums, and several types of salts, to name a few. The goal? To find a way to adjust hardness and pH most efficiently. The experiment was not very successful.... The GH test kit turned out to be bad. I've been meaning to re-do the experiment, though more for curiosity's sake then anything else.

Lots of food for thought tonight!

We really need to hold these discussions more often......

Later!
Amanda.

 

[longstocking]

It's all good... I will fully admit I don't understand half of the chemestry I read that pertains to fish... but I try and at least grasp the different basic concepts. Actually, Julie (frybabies) is a chemist... and talking with her really helps clear questions I have on the issues. But, I at least try I read all those stupid papers... and 90% goes over my head :lol:

I don't know how many times I've been asked why I don't add salt to my tanks... sitting in my fish room with people. I try and explain this... and well, it's hard to !! I do add baking soda though My best explanation... if you went swimming in the african rift lakes do you think it would taste like salt? HA HA HA HA :lol:

Sorry for the off topic Bobby.

 

[cyradis4]

Really sorry for the off topic Bobby......

And personally, adding Backing Soda (ie, raising pH) is probably the most important one..... pH is a logarithmic scale, so the farther away the pH, the more difference a tenth of a point makes. Ie, the change from 7.0 to 7.1 is a far smaller change in water chemistry then 8.0 to 8.1. And the change point pH of 7.0 does really interesting things to Ammonia and Nitrite toxitity...... Ditto for mineral absorption into the fish. But if anyone is interested in that discussion, then lets start a new thread.....

Later!
Amanda.

 

[phishphorphun]

This has been very educational. I never took any chemistry courses, except for when I was in high school. I'm just your average old fashion casual cichlid keeper that professes to know very little technical stuff about the water chemistry. I leave that to the science educated folks out there to help me. And I appreciate your knowledge. Thanks.

Anyway, for those who are interested, my normal "salt" treatment consists of one tablespoon of Instant Ocean for every ten gallons. So when I do a water change for either of my two 120 gallon tanks, I add five tablespoons of IO. (Before anyone asks, my changes are 50%. I figure with all the rock displacement, I actually change about fifty gallons.) As I think Amanda mentioned, some of the minerals in the Instant Ocean remain in the tank when the water evaporates (I think I said it first, but I'm glad she concurred). And when the guy over at the Aquarium Center suggested adding the salt when I first started keeping the Africans, he mentioned that the IO was better than the average aquarium salts because of the added ingredients (minerals?). (I can't remember his name...he had a blond pony tail and he was the African Cichlid expert at the time.) As I said earlier, I've been doing it ever since. However, I did stop with the Malawis last year for a while. Just to see if it made a difference. May have something to do with me losing so many fish over the last several months. So I made a promise to myself that I will get back to the salt formula..and am now back to my old routine.

Now when I am "treating" fish with salt (Instant Ocean), I start out with three tablespoons per ten gallons for the first water change, and two tablespoons for the next. If there is not sufficient improvement after two water changes, I go back to the three per ten gallons formula for the the third change. I've never had to go any further than the third heavy salt formula water change. Usually the fish has healed by then.

To be quite honest with you, my salt treatment has been for body damaged fish. Things like extreme fin damage, busted eyes from fights, etc. Also when I think I may have a parasite problem (fish may start scraping on the rocks). I haven't had anything like this hole in head stuff before. So this is a new experiment for me too.

So Sarah, what are some of the "bad things" that you have heard salt doing to the fish? Are these problems occurring even with moderate amounts of salt added too? Most of my peacocks and haps have lived for around three to five years in my possession. When it seems to be their time, they all seem to develop bloat or some other gastronomical (stop eating?) problem when they start going south. I haven't lost any of the Tanganyikans I've kept except a few of the first Lamprologus Staperssi. I lost a few of them after a normal water change. But I think that was because they were too fragile and weren't properly acclimated to my water yet.

 

[phishphorphun]

I have been using the baking soda to raise the ph for a long time. But thanks for the suggestion.