Does Prime Go Bad?

[dogofwar]

Then why do we even vacuum the gravel? Or clean any filter ever (unless it gets so full of crud that it clogs and ceases to function)?

Would anyone be willing to set up two tanks - both with canisters and gravel...and regularly clean one filter and gravel...and not the other...while keeping equal stocking and water change schedules on both? Maybe track water parameters on each over time and fish growth and health?

If it truly doesn't matter, then I'll quit replacing the clean fluff in my box filters and leave it to become full of stuff forever.

But I doubt it

Matt

After 3 billion years of natural selection and rigorous evolutionary field trials, bacteria are very good at what they do, which is primarily metabolizing whatever it is they digest. You're not giving them near enough credit for the speed and efficiency of their activity - waste breakdown in a tank may not be "instant" nor "complete immediately", but it's pretty close, and enough so that any nitrogenous waste one is able to remove physically is only going to offset a few hours of unprocessed waste accumulation at best. Unless one vacuums every time fish feed or "evacuate" this seems pretty much a waste of time, and anything that is so removed is negligible in terms of improving water quality. The speed at which a nitrite spike appears and then disappears following a feeding attests to this. I use pre-filters on everything and almost never vacuum anything. I also rinse filter media periodically but that is primarily to maintain even water flow as opposed to concern over the impact of "spent" particulates that have been rendered effectively inert by bacteria.

I have an Eheim 2028 hooked up to a 55 containing discus, monster Acarichthys heckelii and juvenile buffaloheads. The filter hasn't been opened in probably a year+, the filter pads are doubtless black as coal, and there is probably at least an inch or so of mulm in the bottom of the canister. I'll bet $100 I can shut it down, dump the entire contents less the media back into the tank (which will make it difficult to impossible to even see the fish), reconnect it and have it restore water clarity without losing or harming a single fish because whatever is in the filter is already effectively inside the larger system that comprises the tank, filters and connecting tubes. All I'd be doing is dispersing something that is presently concentrated in one place throughout the system, but doing so isn't going to change anything with respect to nitrogen compounds because they're already in and evenly dissolved/distributed within the water column.

Any takers? For $200 I might even take video...

 

[mchambers]

Then why do we even vacuum the gravel? Or clean any filter ever (unless it gets so full of crud that it clogs and ceases to function)?

We vacuum the gravel for aesthetics/appearance. Remember that Arthur, our speaker on corydoras earlier this year, advised not to keep the bottom of the tanks too clean. Fish do fine foraging through mulm.

I only clean my canisters when the flow gets too slow. The crud doesn't have any other harmful effect and in fact has lots of good biological activity.

Now back to Holly's problem!

 

[chriscoli]

Then why do we even vacuum the gravel? Or clean any filter ever (unless it gets so full of crud that it clogs and ceases to function)?
Matt

I don't except for aesthetic reasons.

I vacuum the substrate in my tanks with mattenfilters to delay clogging. I vacuum the tanks with canister filters because nobody likes to sit at the dining room table and look at fish poop. But, if I can't see it...I don't worry about it unless it's starting to form noticeable anaerobic pockets when the diggers bury it under the substrate.

I don't rinse my prefilters until they clog. I don't clean my canisters until rinsing the prefilters doesn't help anymore.

Removing old fish waste reduces dissolved organics in the water column, which some fish don't like. I leave the mulm in as long as I can stand it in my planted tanks.

My two cents: from a nitrogenous waste point of view....it doesn't matter.
From an aesthetic/dissolved organics point of view, it may matter to you.

 

[dogofwar]

Dissolved organics like nitrate?

Lots of fish don't like that!

Matt

 

[chriscoli]

Dissolved organics like nitrate?

Lots of fish don't like that!

Matt

Nitrate is not a dissolved organic.

 

[hollyfish2000]

Well, I'm so proud my baffling problem has been grist for the forum mill!!

Something has worked and the nitrite test tube is baby blue again. Since that occurred after I dumped a whole bottle of Safe Start, I'm going to credit that as making the difference. I have now ordered a large bottle of that to be on hand as well as a different dechlorinator. I'm going to go back to smaller water changes and making sure the water is aged 24 hours.

I can add a sponge filter, but I have a fluval 305 and 405 already on the the tank (only a 45 gallon) so I'm not sure what that would add. I did bring over a sponge filter from another tank when this started, but it didn't turn the tide sufficiently.

interestingly, the tank now looks like hell. With the large amount of splash, the plants are probably not getting enough C02, so the algae is thriving. I'm going to probably pull the plants. I might even break the tank down and start over. I've not been happy with some aspects of the tank for a while and it might give me the incentive I need.

 

[mchambers]

Holly, do you put the dechlorinator in the bucket when you start aging the water? As I recall, dechlorinators only render the ammonia nontoxic for a while, enough time for the biofiltration to convert the ammonia to nitrite. Maybe you should add dechlorinator right before you move the water from the buckets to the tank?

 

[Avatar]

Amazing grace

Then why do we even vacuum the gravel?

Cuz y'all's Mamas raised y'all proper like, whereas I were raised by wolves?

 

[mchambers]

Do you howl at the moon?

 

[dogofwar]

Correct (beforew I had a cup of coffee) - nitrate doesn't contain carbon...but is dissolved.

Matt

Nitrate is not a dissolved organic.

 

[chriscoli]

Correct (beforew I had a cup of coffee) - nitrate doesn't contain carbon...but is dissolved.

Matt

Ya know...I almost suggested you go have another cup!

 

[Avatar]

Melancholia

Do you howl at the moon?

Mostly just at women when they're leaving. - much more mournful than la luna.

 

[Avatar]

Just so

...nitrate doesn't contain carbon...but is dissolved.

Precisely.

Admire yon vacuumers (a.k.a. "hose monsters"), but hail the water-changers who travel an illumined path even though some be righteous and puerile.

 

[dogofwar]

A good quote:
The primary function of mechanical filtration is to remove large particulate matter from the water before it begins to decompose.Filter sponges, polyester floss, and micron filters are some of the more common forms of mechanical filtration media.While mechanical filtration can be used on a reef aquarium, it may become a detriment if not used properly.If the mechanical filter media is not cleaned often, the particulate matter trapped by the filter will decompose and pollute the aquarium water.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/dw/

Good and relevant discussion:
"Mechanical filters only promote nitrates if they are allowed to go biological. If you are cleaning your power filter regularly, then that won't happen."

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/mechanical-filters-as-nitrate-factories-35002.html

More of the same...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/beginner

So, if you do choose to use some sort of mechanical filter in your reef, there are a few things to keep in mind.

• It is important to make sure the filter is easy to access and clean. In my experience, the more difficult something is to keep clean, the less likely you are to keep up with it....
• Try to clean or replace the filters frequently to prevent the buildup of materials that can act as a sink for nutrients. These nutrient build-ups can contribute to various algae problems.

Matt

 

[mchambers]

Each of these sources is discussing saltwater tanks. My understanding is that biological filtration in saltwater tanks is quite a bit different than in freshwater tanks. Perhaps that is where the "nitrate factory" meme originated.

 

[dogofwar]

Of course, detritus doesn't decompose or cause pollution in fresh water.

Matt

Each of these sources is discussing saltwater tanks. My understanding is that biological filtration in saltwater tanks is quite a bit different than in freshwater tanks. Perhaps that is where the "nitrate factory" meme originated.

 

[hollyfish2000]

Ok, so Matt raises an interesting point.

this is my water routine:

1. Fill 30 gallon plastic trash can with water
2. Dump in enough Prime to dechlorinate a swimming pool
3. Drop in two bubblers

Leave for 24 hours

Dip water change buckets directly into trash can, drip water all over the bathroom, carry to tanks and pour in.

I do not re-dechlorinate the water as I assumed the 24 hours of bubbling took out the chlorine and I just add the Prime for good measure.

 

[dogofwar]

Holly,

The Prime dechlorinates your water...so would bubbling for 24 hrs.

To prevent the spilling, why don't you run put a hose on a water pump and run it from the bucket to your tanks (or just use a Python)?

Matt

Ok, so Matt raises an interesting point.

this is my water routine:

1. Fill 30 gallon plastic trash can with water
2. Dump in enough Prime to dechlorinate a swimming pool
3. Drop in two bubblers

Leave for 24 hours

Dip water change buckets directly into trash can, drip water all over the bathroom, carry to tanks and pour in.

I do not re-dechlorinate the water as I assumed the 24 hours of bubbling took out the chlorine and I just add the Prime for good measure.

 

[mchambers]

Nope

Of course, detritus doesn't decompose or cause pollution in fresh water.

Matt

That wasn't my point. My point is that canisters in a freshwater tank are used in part for biological filtration. My understanding is that this is not the case for canisters in salt water tanks. I've never had a salt water tank, so perhaps I am wrong, but that's what I've read.

 

[Avatar]

Sigh

A good quote:
The primary function of mechanical filtration is to remove large particulate matter from the water before it begins to decompose.Filter sponges, polyester floss, and micron filters are some of the more common forms of mechanical filtration media.While mechanical filtration can be used on a reef aquarium, it may become a detriment if not used properly.If the mechanical filter media is not cleaned often, the particulate matter trapped by the filter will decompose and pollute the aquarium water.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/dw/

This addresses saltwater systems but in any case all mechanical filtration becomes biological given time, with foams/sponges/floss doing a good job of both. Bacterial action decomposes particulates whether they are in the filter or not, such being the nature and voracity of ravenous beneficial microbes. Hard to see how a mechanical filter could trap waste that doesn't include bacteria or how decomposition can proceed that is immune to bacterial action resulting in "pollution" unless there is some aspect of saltwater chemistry that is fundamentally different from sweetwater which I doubt.

Good and relevant discussion:
"Mechanical filters only promote nitrates if they are allowed to go biological. If you are cleaning your power filter regularly, then that won't happen."

Saltwater again but this is the same as saying that mechanical filters only break down harmful nitrites if they develop colonies of de-nitrifying bacteria which is a good/essential thing for freshwater tanks. Unless nitrates are not soluble in saltwater this is a specious argument since anything that is water soluble cannot selectively be/remain isolated inside a filter. And unless "cleaning your power filter regularly" involves sterilizing it, impossible to keep it or anything else from going "biological. And since virtually all mechanical filtration channels water directly into a biological filtration stage, how is it that the products of this alleged "decomposition" and "pollution" are impervious to subsequent bacterial action? Easy answer - they're not.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/f6/mechanical-filters-as-nitrate-factories-35002.html

Read this thread and these guys clearly are talking out of their a**es - "nitrate factories"?! - well no kidding, but that just means the filters are doing exactly what they're supposed to which is converting harmful nitrites to relatively benign nitrates. .

More of the same...
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/beginner

From the same article: "Today more and more aquarists are finding that mechanical filters are unnecessary in the reef aquarium. This is mainly due to the fact that the surfaces in the aquarium where detritus settles is constantly being picked over by an enormous clean-up crew consisting of fish, crabs, shrimps, snails, polychaete worms, etc. all the way down to the bacteria. In fact, some aquarists believe that the absence of a mechanical filter is preferable because the free-floating debris helps to feed various filter feeding organisms."

I quit. Rock on.