Calling all BBA gurus pleeze

hollyfish2000

hollyfish2000

Members
ARRGH. My 58-gallon planted tank is doing the BBA thing and it's making me crazy. I'm tearing it apart this weekend (in part to catch my aforementioned wiley Bolivians) but also to try and do a mini start-over.

Tank has been set up about seven months. I have a powercompact light with nearly 200 watts, but stagger the light so it's not full power for the full eight hours (in an attempt to lower the WPG). Maybe that's wrong. I do have presssurized C02. I have it heavily planted in Eco-complete. My nitrates had been quite low to begin with (lots of plants not a lot of fish) and I'd been dosing with nitrogen and phosphates. But have since stopped that as nitrates hover in the 10 range now. Phosphates are either .5 or 1 (can't recall) from the last test. I dose occasionally with potassium, iron, trace, Excel and Flourish from the Seachem line. I use Seachem plant tabs, too. I have mostly big swords, plus crypts, anubias, java fern, microswords, vals of various sorts, wistera, giant hygro, etc. etc. Mostly moderate to low light type plants. Temp is 78. Filters are Fluval 405 and 205. Ph less than 7. Water changes are only about 25 percent a week in an attempt to keep the nitrates high enough for the plants.

Significant amounts of BBA is on the solid objects, including driftwood, output nozzles, etc. It's also on the anubias leaves and other plants.

Generally speaking, too, the swords aren't exactly thriving. I remove a lot of leaves due to BBA but also because the ends have turned brown.

So I have an imbalance. But what is it? Too little light? Too much light? Not enough . . . ???

Any advice appreciated.
 
YSS

YSS

Members
You should check out plantedtank.net. From what I remember reading, light drives everything. So, may be not enough lights compared to everything else you are doing?
 
Tony

Tony

Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Check out Siamese Algae Eaters (SAE's). They are money algae eaters when small and don't turn out to be quite as big of jerks when they get big (as Chinese algae eaters do).

They are the only algae eaters that I know that will touch the black beard stuff. I've had 1-2 in my 45 planted tank for years (along with ottos for the green stuff).

You can tell them from Flying foxes and the Chinese variety from their lateral stripe. The SAE will have a strip that does all the way to the fork in his caudel fin. The other two have a stripe that stops at the base of the fin.

Worth a shot, right? Easier than tearing stuff apart.

Good luck!
 
B

BlondeFishGal

Members
Tearing down your tank won't correct the BBA problem unless you figure out what is out of balance and correct it. Otherwise, you can tear down your tank and redo, but then if all the factors remain the same, in time, you'll have the same problem.

You didn't say what your CO2 concentration is. And I am assuming you have it rigged to go on/off with your lights, yes?

Also, with your lighting, are you using 6700k full spectrum compact bulbs, 10,000K bulbs.....or ?

You may not be keeping your lights on enough. You said you were staggering the lighting, so that the full wattage wasn't on for 8 hours. Plants require light to photosynthesize. If you are dosing with nutrients but the plants are not getting enough light, you may just be feeding the algae. I'd also suggest you plant more fast growing stem plants, to outcompete the algae for the food stuff.

I use alot of lighting in my tanks, b/c I do alot of red plants.
One of the tricks I use in my planted tanks is to do a time split on the lights. They are on timers, and they all go on at 10 am, shut off at 3 pm then all go back on at 5 pm and shut off for the day at 11 pm. They get the full wattage a total of 11 hours, but in two periods. There is a theory that the little break simulates an afternoon thunderstorm, which often happens in the Amazon and allows the plants to flourish while minimizing algae.

Often, little adjustments in a planted tank have a huge payoff. Takes a little patience, and I would strongly recommend against changing alot of things at once. You want to identify the problem and correct it. If you change alot of things concurrently, you can create more problems.

Don't despair, once you get it under control, it will be worth it! ;)
 
Andrew

Andrew

Members
BBA is easy to kill. Seriously. Start dosing with Seachem's Flourish Excel. Follow bottle instructions for a week, 1 capful Per ten gallons daily. You should start seeing the BBA go pale. If not, double the doses. Stop CO2 while dosing with Excel.

It will take some time, but the BBA will be killed and rot away.
 
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chris_todd

chris_todd

Members
Agreed, don't tear things down. Alesia has some excellent suggestions, including increasing your total photoperiod, but doing a split photoperiod (BTW, that works because plants can start photosynthesizing very quickly after the lights some on, but the photosynthetic machinery in algae is not as efficient, and takes time to "ramp up". So having a dark period break in the middle of the day doesn't hurt the plants, but seriously hampers the algae).

Also see this awesome serious of shots from our own Rachel on the Amano shrimp:
http://www.capitalcichlids.org/forums/showthread.php?t=6128
Not a solution to your problem (you'll need to fix whatever nutrient imbalance is fundamentally causing the problem), but they will help you cleanup in the short term, and they look cool, too.

Your tank sounds very similar to my high-tech 90g, and I can tell you that while those plants are commonly called "low light", swords and crypt actually love light, Iron, and Flourish. I dose about 2-4x the recommended Iron dose, and the swords, anubias, and crypts love it.
 
Andrew

Andrew

Members
Ok, my post was too short. Here's a bit more explanation:

BBA needs lots and lots of iron. Flourite substrate has lots and lots of iron in it, as does tapwater in many areas. Iron can be present in bio-available forms, i.e., plants and algae can use it, and non-available forms, i.e. nothing can use it.

Flourish Excel, in addition to providing a non-CO2 carbon source for your plants, converts bio-available iron molecules into non-available molecules. I don't know the chemistry; I just know it works. The non-available iron is generally harmless in the concentrations that you'd expect to have in your tank, before or after treatment with Excel. The BBA dies and rots away once this critical nutrient is gone.

Your other plants need bio-available iron too, but generally take it up through their roots. Even the bunch plants which often take most of their other nutrition through the leaves. These roots are in physical contact with their primary iron source, the Flourite substrate, so they will not starve on this treatment. Even if there was an adverse effect on the plants, it is negligible compared to the greater threat of the BBA growing all over them.

Precautions: scaleless fish sometimes have trouble with Excel, especially loaches. Freshwater inverts definitely have trouble with Excel, especially shrimps. These should either be removed if you are going to try the treatment, or you should try another method first, like those suggested here by others. CO2 injection plus Excel is at least overkill, if not dangerous, so you don't want to do both. Do frequent, small water changes, especially as the BBA starts to die, so the rotting algae doesn't overwhelm the tank with nutrients.

Breaking down your tank is worse than starting from scratch and we'd all hate to see you have to do it. You stir up all kinds of gunk that's safely residing in the substrate right now, plus you risk algae blooms and other issues as you restart the tank. If you have to remove some plants or decorations to catch the Rams (I'll be happy to help catch them, by the way, weekdays 10-2, pm me if you want help), simply lift them out while disturbing the substrate as little as possible.

Having said all that, all the other posts here are excellent suggestions too. SAE's and Amano shrimp both eat BBA. The only trick is that you end up with less choice in your livestock selection. Ironically, I've seen SAE's eat Amano shrimp... Also, in a heavy outbreak it can be tough for them to consume it all. I like using biological controls (BBA eating animals) once the outbreak is contained to help prevent another one down the road.

Alesia's points are particularly helpful to recovering your tank once you've gotten rid of the BBA. The phrase that jumped out at me in your original post is "dose occasionally with..." This doesn't help your plants as they are exposed to differing levels of nutrients on different days and cannot establish a consistent growth pattern. Dosing and changing water regularly is as, or more, important as selecting which specific ferts to dose with because then your plants can get in a groove, grow rapidly and out compete different kinds of algae.

Once the BBA is gone and you start experimenting with fertilizer regimes, I would still dose with Excel on a weekly basis to help prevent the iron levels from coming back up and risking another outbreak. On a limited dosage like that, I wouldn't worry about turning off the CO2 for long term maintenance.

Hope this helps.
 
Tony

Tony

Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Wow. Excellent thread.

I just learned a whole lot. Thanks guys!

See, our membership ain't all just cichlids. ;)
 
hollyfish2000

hollyfish2000

Members
Thanks for the info. I've used SAEs in the past, but they always grow and get big and ruin the "fung shui" of my tank. I made Andrew of TFW promise not to sell them to me anymore as I always end up hating them. I've also had shrimp in the past without luck, although with the Bolivians gone that might be something to think about as maybe no one left will eat them!

I have overdosed on Excel in the past for BBA. This particular outbreak seems beyond that and I wanted to deal with the fundamental problem as well as the existing algae itself. The "breakdown" I'm intending will include lowering the water level so I can Excel the out-take nozzles, taking out and dosing the driftwood with Excel and removing significantly affected plant leaves. The affected anubias will also get dipped in Excel solutions with water, although in the past I've been too rigourous with this and damaged the plant.

I can easily change the lighting. I had been trying to fix the problem by lowering the WPG, but perhaps that's the wrong direction? I can also easily do a light-siesta in the middle. The length of time suggested is also seriously longer than what I'm doing.

I used to dose ferts regularly but was advised to stop as a way to control the BBA. Now that you mention it, it seems to have gotten worse with less fertilization. So I can go back to my regular routine.

I am very reluctant to substitute Excel entirely for pressurized C02, especially if I significantly bump up the lighting.

So for now, I'll remove as much BBA as I can manually, add some new plants, increase lighting length and wattage, do the light break and restart ferts and see what happens.

Thanks all!
 
B

BlondeFishGal

Members
hollyfish2000 said:
Thanks for the info. I've used SAEs in the past, but they always grow and get big and ruin the "fung shui" of my tank. I made Andrew of TFW promise not to sell them to me anymore as I always end up hating them. I've also had shrimp in the past without luck, although with the Bolivians gone that might be something to think about as maybe no one left will eat them!

I have overdosed on Excel in the past for BBA. This particular outbreak seems beyond that and I wanted to deal with the fundamental problem as well as the existing algae itself. The "breakdown" I'm intending will include lowering the water level so I can Excel the out-take nozzles, taking out and dosing the driftwood with Excel and removing significantly affected plant leaves. The affected anubias will also get dipped in Excel solutions with water, although in the past I've been too rigourous with this and damaged the plant.

I can easily change the lighting. I had been trying to fix the problem by lowering the WPG, but perhaps that's the wrong direction? I can also easily do a light-siesta in the middle. The length of time suggested is also seriously longer than what I'm doing.

I used to dose ferts regularly but was advised to stop as a way to control the BBA. Now that you mention it, it seems to have gotten worse with less fertilization. So I can go back to my regular routine.

I am very reluctant to substitute Excel entirely for pressurized C02, especially if I significantly bump up the lighting.

So for now, I'll remove as much BBA as I can manually, add some new plants, increase lighting length and wattage, do the light break and restart ferts and see what happens.

Thanks all!
Click to expand...

Hi Holly:

What bulbs are you using now for your lighting?
Full spectrum/daylight? 6700K, 10,000, atinic?

I'm always trying to get at the source of an algae problem, b/c otherwise, it will come back even if you remove it temporily. Algae in planted tanks is an indication that something is out of balance ..once you figure that out, you end it.

I am very curious to the type of bulb you are using. If it is the wrong type of light, and emits alot from blue end of the spectrum, it won't matter how long you leave the lights on, you'll run into problems. The wrong type of light can easily create algae problems.

Also, I would not recommend increasing both the lighting time length AND the wattage. I don't think the wattage is the problem...I think if you have the correct lighting and just increase your lighting time, feed the plants nutrients regularly, you should see a difference. But you also need to check your CO2 levels (there is any easy test you can do for both the pH and the KH then use those to deterine your CO2 levels. I can explain it if you wish, which will give you good readings on your tank's CO2 level. I'm sure the chart to read the levels is somewhere on the web. I've worked with lots of "wet thumbers" who simply adjusted their lighting and upped their CO2 levels a tad, and it worked like magic. Then you just dose on schedule, sit back, and enjoy!
 
hollyfish2000

hollyfish2000

Members
Yes, goal is to get the problem, not just remove the existing algae.

The fixture is a Coralife Aqualite with two 96 watt bulbs in a plant-friendly spectrum. I assume they are 6700. When I say increasing the wattage, I mean stop staggering the bulbs. Now, I have one bulb go on first for X hours and then the second bulb comes on as well for a time and then goes off again so that the rest of the time, there's only one bulb again. I did this to effectively lower the WPG. Sorry if I wasn't clear. By keeping both lights on the entire time I'm effectively boosting WPG. Based on the comments, I was also planning on extending the entire lighting period from the 7-8 it is now to maybe 8-9 with a siesta.
 
B

BlondeFishGal

Members
Hi Holly:

Thanks for your explanation. Okay, we'll assume your bulbs are the right kind (you might be able to see a description on the bulbs themselves. Coral life often does this on their bulbs; lots of mine have the info on the compacts). Also, try and be mindful of how old the bulbs are. The will still work but the "brightness" of them (lumens) will deteriorate over time. You won't see it with your naked eyes but your plants will! I keep a little log for each of my tanks for stuff like that and jot down when I changed the lights, test results now and then, etc. One of the things about a planted tank is that its needs change as the plants grow and you add new ones. What worked when you first planted the tank may be too little now, b/c the bigger, growing plants will use up nutrients a lot faster.

Both bulbs on for the duration of your photoperiod will do much better for your plants. Think of it as a garden plant that doesn’t do as well in the shade as it does in the sun ;)

You can also experiment as to how long to leave them on, over time. Plants don’t read the manuals, so sometimes you read something but the plant has its own agenda. Don’t give up! One of the reasons I tend to rush in and start asking questions when a wet thumber is having problems, is b/c the person can easily get frustrated and just give up. Then they think planted tanks stink! :(

Also try and think back to when your plants were doing well. What were you doing then that you are not now? This is another reason why I love to take a few notes on my tanks now and then. Helps to correct problems and keep things going smoothly. (I also think it comes from me just being a total geek and enjoying documenting things) ;)

Stay in touch, good luck, and let us know how your tank is doing in a couple of weeks. As I said before, once you find the right equation for your plants, it gets much easier.
 
hollyfish2000

hollyfish2000

Members
Light fixture is six-seven months old, so I may need new bulbs (at least the one that's been on the most). But I never had gotten this tank quite right since day one, so I think it's more than that. BBA has plaqued me in my previous two planted tanks as well.

But no risk that I'll give up plants. No worries there.

I may not have enough C02. I'll measure the levels . . .
 
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