Breeding multiple species in the same tank

[DiscusnAfricans]

In an ideal world, we would all have individual tanks for each of our breeding groups, and dedicated tanks for fry and growouts.

For most of us, there are too many interesting species to keep everything in separate tanks, so for some situations cohousing breeding groups can be successful.

What are your guidelines for mixing groups? How many groups are too many?

There are many factors that influence proper choices, so for a theoretical scenario lets use a 75 gallon tank as a template tank.

Feel free to share any past experiences on what has worked and what hasn't.

 

[AndyNarwhal]

I will only breed species together that have different spawning strategies. Such as a mouthbrooder with an egglayer.

All fish with the same breeding strategy are capable of hybridizing so keeping multiple groups of mouthbrooders together is just asking for trouble.

Andy

 

[jonclark96]

Being pretty much a New World keeper (i have one small mbuna tank I just started up), I have kept pairs of in "community" tanks. In general, I have had success with pairs breeding, but very little success in any fry surviviing unless I separate them to another tank.

My favorite species to keep are some of the smaller growing centrals (cryptoheros and archocentrus). In a 75, I would say that you may be able to get away with 2 pairs, but chances of survival are slim. Until I recently split up some grow out pairs in to their own tanks, I had a 55 with a pair of platinum HRP's, a pair of Grenada cons, and a half dozen other grow outs. The two pairs would spawn pretty regularly and the fry would get to free swimming, but within a few days the fry would get picked off one by one and the cycle would start all over again. Although the parents were a vigilant as they could be defending their brood, inevitably they could not protect the 100's of fry as they went in 100 different direction. There would put a beating on the other inhabitant of the tank, but in the end, no fry would survive.

I have had success with smaller pairs spawning and rearing fry in a large tank with lots of cover. Again, I have had multiple cryptoheros species spawn in my 180 and manage to get a dozen or so fry to the juvenile stage. This is in with much larger and meaner fish, but there is enough room for the parents to corral their brood and room for the other fish to go without being tormented. Right now, I have 3 spawning pairs in the tank that each have fry ranging from 2 weeks old to 4 months.

I guess in summary, my experiences have been that trying to breed new worlds in a community settings in a 75 is not a recipe for success.

 

[UNCLERUCKUS]

Discus great topic! i can truly say i know exactly what you mean. it seemed like whe i first began keeping fish there was always another fish that i just had to have. which soon led to upgrades and purchasing more tanks. well if you are like me tank space is a issue. to help solve my problem i began to acquire larger tanks to suit my fish needs. for my parachromis community tank i have had amazing results with what i have tried. this is a 225g with jaguar pair, red tiger motaguense pair, loselli pair, la ceiba pair, vontehillo pair, plecos, 2 oscars,and a gold tiger motaguense female. i aquascape the tank with driftwood,rocks, and faux rocks and caves. my goal was to break up direct lines of sight while leaving places for everyone to call their own ...per se. well it has worked for me going on 3 years and ive sucessfully bred in this tank. i try to pull the breeding pair if i see it coming and move them to my 75g tank for spawning and growing out fish.
i also run a another 180 community tank which is mostly a vieja tank. it holds a bifa, bocourti, synspilum pair, pearsi, fenestraus, zonatum, festae and a grammode using the same concept. ive found that if introduced to a tank about the same size that they do well. i wouldnt try doing this with a established tank of adults or you will be seeing mass murder happening right before your eyes. i was told years ago that it would never make it 6 months but its workingout nicely. granted i know this is a exception and wont work for everyone but it can be done. just research, plan, plan, and then plan some more lol!

 

[verbal]

I haven't had a ton of breeding success, but I have actually had more success on average breeding in smaller tanks. I think it may be they tend to get higher percentage water changes.

I agree with mixing fish with different breeding strategies if possible.

I have a pair of apistos spawning on a pretty regular basis for me. I have a pair of another apisto species, that I think needs a little size. I also have a group of Vics that are close to breeding. I also have a pair of West African mouthbrooders.

I am hoping to get some pleco breeding going. My plan is to mix cichlid grow-out and catfish breeding. Depending on how many catfish breeding groups I end up with, i may have to mix them with a cichlid breeding group/pair. I wouldn't mix the apistos and the plecos for breeding since they both need caves, but mouthbrooders should work okay.

 

[vinman]

What a great thread DiscusnAfricans I hope this can help newbies in what can and can not go together. I been keeping Malawi Cichlids for many years now. I have had problems keeping some species together. I know the biggest problem is aggression the second hybridization. I myself never keep any of my breeding stock in a 75 but I have kept them in a 55 and a 95 long which is 60 x 18 inches. What a difference it has been from a 55 to a 95. I know certain species that can't live in a 55 together can live together in the 95 long with no problems. I have found a magic number that works for me. If I was to use a 75 I don't think I would do anything different that what I keep in my 95 long. I found the magic of 5 males of each ssp is the best way to lower aggression.

Example Ps. elongatus Ornatus Likoma Is and Met.Kingsize Likoma frost. I tried one male of each in a 55 with at least 4 females of each ssp. even though these fish both come from likoma you would think they would get along with each other ". NOT " Unless each male held territory in totally opposites sides of the tank if not they would fight to the death. Sometimes I got lucky and they would split the tank up and you would catch them most of the day fighting and the boundary line. I found if I put 4 males of each ssp with females the aggression would not be that bad but 3 was a killer and 5 or more males of each ssp was the magic number.

When I tried 3 males of each spp I would find out that you would have a dominant, a sub dom and the totally submissive male. Even if 2 of the same ssp held territory the third would get picked on all the time. The only time this seemed to pan out is when I would have 2 male elongatus and 2 kingsizei that were dominant or they were in the tank with 2 to 3 other SSp. They would be fighting all the time with each other. They would have no time to run the other 2 sub dom males all over the tank.

It is also a learning experience which SSp can go int the same tank. The level of aggression is one thing . Some Ssp are more aggressive than others. What about when the aggression is the same but the fish are hard wired not to like each other as in elongatus & kingsizei. I don't advise keeping these two Ssp together unless you know your Malawi Cichlids well. They are hard wired to fight each other. Just these 2 Ssp alone in a 55 is a powder cake ready to explode if you are doing the 1 to 3 male of each species but 5 males of each works. you got 10 males in the tank that will fight with each other and against each other. There will also be a pecking order This will distribute the aggression and should prevent death. Like every thing there are exceptions to the rule. One Serrano is where one male becomes king of the tank and he runs all the other males to death. That is when he needs to be removed and replaced.


I normaly like to put 4 to 6 different species of Mbuna in a 55 gal

 

[dogofwar]

I normaly like to put 4 to 6 different species of Mbuna in a 55 gal

So what 4-6 species of mbuna can you mix in a 55g to ensure that they don't hybridize?

Matt

 

[Cartel]

I look at myself as a casual fish keeper so I don't breed. When I did I mainly had species only tanks. Most likely due to the fact that most fish I liked could hybridize and I definitely did not what that.

 

[rsretep]

95% of my 20 tanks are species tanks, I am trying to get them to breed without hybridization

 

[vinman]

So what 4-6 species of mbuna can you mix in a 55g to ensure that they don't hybridize?

Matt

You have to watch the fish. I learned by trial and error. I had one fish hybridize that skipped my eye . I must have had one large male and about 3 up and coming males much smaller size and about 7 breeder females of 100% pure L. RT honji Hongi Island in my 55 gal with a lone male L.Trewavase Chulumba . There were other SSp in the tank too. Every male had plenty of females except the Trewavase. I was growing up my baby RT hongi and noticed a funny face on some of them. I knew that face , I seen it before. It was the face of a labeotropheus hybrid. Well all the fry I grew out to 2 inches that looked normal before I sold any. All the funny face ones I flushed. They had so little color in their dorsals with that funny face they were easy to pick out at 1.5 inches among the pure hongi. That was the only case of this happing to me in my breeder tanks. I'm sure if the trewavase had females this would had never happened. I guess being alone with no ladies for 6 months you court anything. The weird thing was why did the female chose him. I had a very good breeder male Hongi in the tank but one of my females chose the trewavase. This does not normally happen when you put different species with multiple males and females together. Another problem most people have is obtaining pure stock. I know with mbuna what you may not be as pure as you think it is. I know the Chulumba trewavase and some OB peacocks was a Aquarium Strain.

 

[cmcpart0422]

Throughout the years I seem to keep species only tanks. When I do go multiple species in the same tank they are often times different enough. I have done peacocks and victorians in the same tank with no issues and had both spawn. I have had up to 4 species in a 55 before but never kept any of the fry because I never witnessed the spawn and never felt like dealing with possible hybridization.

 

[ddavila06]

i keep multiple apisto sp. in same tanks due to lack of space. i get them to spawn but if i let them try to raise their babies someone ends up eating them....so lately i pull the cave with the eggs and the mother and im trying to raise them in a separate tank =)

 

[dogofwar]

"Another problem most people have is obtaining pure stock. I know with mbuna what you may not be as pure as you think it is."

Like any cichlid, mbuna without provenance back to a reputable vendor / wild stock is questionable.

There are way too many people breeding a bunch of random fish in a tank, calling them wild, F1, or even pure to just assume the best...

Matt

 

[vinman]

I have to agree with that . Where there is money there is foul play. I have seen people take some Aquarium Strain fish females and breed them to a wild male and sell them as G1. I also do this type of breeding but I don't sell them as G1. I tell people they are Aquarium Strain females bred to a wild or G1 male. There are a lot of franken fish sold as pure breeds

I know what I do here is straight up. I have about 10 G1 likoma kingsizei females. They were born here and I have 3 brand new WC males I got from Atlantis the same place I got the parents of the females . The young I will sell as G1 X wild and if I save any females I will breed them back to 3 new wild males and I will sell them as ( G1 X Wild ) x ( Wild ). I try to keep my pure stock that I know came from wild caught founder stock. I like to add different wild males and sometimes females depending on the species as much as I can afford

 

[dogofwar]

So you only sell fish that you've bred in species-only tanks or tanks with 5-6 mbuna species?

Matt

 

[vinman]

So you only sell fish that you've bred in species-only tanks or tanks with 5-6 mbuna species?

Matt

no I buy and re sell too

 

[dogofwar]

I was referring to the fish that you personally breed and sell....but

For the fish that you buy and re-sell, how do you assure that they're "pure"?

Would you buy and re-sell fish from someone breeding several mbuna species in the same tank...even if they told you that they kept a close eye on them and culled funny looking offspring?

Matt

no I buy and re sell too

 

[vinman]

I was referring to the fish that you personally breed and sell....but

For the fish that you buy and re-sell, how do you assure that they're "pure"?

Would you buy and re-sell fish from someone breeding several mbuna species in the same tank...even if they told you that they kept a close eye on them and culled funny looking offspring?

Matt

I get fish from many different sources I have a friend that breeds his fish like me. There is no one in the tank to make a hybrid with. a little over a year ago I went over his house and went through his 2 breeder tanks and cleaned everything up. at the time he had too much crap together. he was producing a lot of hybrids. I set up his breeding colony's and got rid of all the crap. Now he has nothing in his tanks that will hybridize. He has some WC now and more on the way. He has Cherey Reds which anybody who knows Mbuna know that is a hybrid red zebras. His yellow Labs are AS not traceable to the wild. I have another guy that farms his fish in NY he will breed species only tanks there are only 2 tanks that have 2 species in them . I'm sure the Keny are not going to breed with the borlyi and the albino zebras are not going to breed with the vinustus. I have also bought colorful hybrids and I sell them as hybrids.

So where do you get all your fish from can you trace every fishes lineage back to the wild ancestors

 

[dogofwar]

So where do you get all your fish from can you trace every fishes lineage back to the wild ancestors

Most of the fish that I keep have provenance back to the wild, either from the folks who collected them, I collected them, or from reputable vendors (like Jeff Rapps).

Check out my for sale threads in the marketplace.

Producing quality fish is about BOTH knowing the purity of what you're breeding AND ensuring that you're only breeding fish with known provenance to fish with known provenance...

Matt

 

[vinman]

Most of the fish that I keep have provenance back to the wild, either from the folks who collected them, I collected them, or from reputable vendors (like Jeff Rapps).

Check out my for sale threads in the marketplace.

Producing quality fish is about BOTH knowing the purity of what you're breeding AND ensuring that you're only breeding fish with known provenance to fish with known provenance...

Matt

Ok you do mostly new world. I was hoping you got some stuff out of lake Malawi.

I have a saying if you can't trace every fish used in a strain back to wild caught anstors and you don't know if a person is trully honest then you don't know if your fish are pure