"Breaking" The Contract

[hollyfish2000]

So I had to strip a recently aquired peacock female this morning and euthanize the resulting fry because she had been in a tank with multiple different peacocks. The fry were basically ready to be spit and to live out a long and happy life in our tanks. Instead, I had to euthanize them with clove oil. I feel quite terrible about it. I was pondering why I was so upset (beyond just the loss of cute, little fish) and this is what I came up with:

I had broken the "contract."

So this is my view: as fishkeepers, we have a contract of sorts with the fish we keep. The contract basically is that we:

Keep them in appropriate sized and 'scaped tanks for their species
Keep them in clean water
Keep them with appropriate tank mates
Prevent them from breeding with inappropriate mates
Feed them nutritious, appropriate food
Prevent avoidable mistakes (like me recently dropping a fish)
Intervene if they are being mistreated in the tank
Treat them when they are injured or sick
Humanely end their suffering if need be

Just my two cents.

RIP little babies . . .

 

[Becca]

Holly - how bad would it have been to have hybrid fry? I'm sure you could've donated them to a pet shop, or at least allowed other club members to put them to use as feeders.

 

[mchambers]

Holly,

I know just how you felt. A few months ago, I moved a fish I wanted to donate at an upcoming auction into a bucket with a HOB filter on it. The day of the meeting, the fish was gone. It obviously had jumped out the night before.

I found it several weeks later, fish jerky, way under a tank. I felt very badly, even though I didn't particularly like the fish.

So I agree with all of your principles.

 

[hollyfish2000]

Becca -- As far as I'm concerned, hybrid fry should not be in the marketplace. And I don't have extra tank space to raise up babies that I don't want/need. And giving the babies to someone to use as feeder fish isn't an improvement over humanely euthanizing them . . .

 

[DougGosnell]

I know people with dart frogs that have to do the same thing.

 

[Localzoo]

Well might not be human but their lives serve a purpose. Just my opinion
Sorry hope you feel better
all baby animals are adorable so I understand.


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[Becca]

Becca -- As far as I'm concerned, hybrid fry should not be in the marketplace. And I don't have extra tank space to raise up babies that I don't want/need. And giving the babies to someone to use as feeder fish isn't an improvement over humanely euthanizing them . . .

I see your point, though I always felt better about putting culls to some use rather than just disposing of them. Even if you use them as fertilizer for a plant instead of flushing them, it's something. I do my best not to waste bodies when I can avoid it - my plants thank me for it.

 

[jonclark96]

Anton addressed the issue of unwanted fry a bit in his talk Friday night at AM2. In nature, a vast majority of the fry that are born in nature are consumed by predators. It's just the way nature works. It's one of the reasons that fish are so prolific when they breed.

 

[hollyfish2000]

Actually, Jon, I hadn't thought of that. That does make me feel better.

 

[blkmjk]

Feeders is humane... They don't feel a thing . I do this a lot. It is over quick. How did you humanely euthanize them?

Drew

 

[dogofwar]

I also feed extra fry to predators...

Matt

 

[mchambers]

Well

Feeders is humane... They don't feel a thing . I do this a lot. It is over quick. How did you humanely euthanize them?

Drew

Not trying to start a fight here, and I'm okay with using fish as feeders, at least in situations like these, but how do you know they don't feel a thing? I see stuff written like this frequently, so I'm curious. Is there a scientific basis for asserting this?

 

[cichlidaddicted]

Anton addressed the issue of unwanted fry a bit in his talk Friday night at AM2. In nature, a vast majority of the fry that are born in nature are consumed by predators. It's just the way nature works. It's one of the reasons that fish are so prolific when they breed.

Very good point and also very interesting as he was referencing cares species. One would not think that any endangered fish should be disposed of. On the other hand people don't always consider that this could actually improve the the gene pool.

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[blkmjk]

Not trying to start a fight here, and I'm okay with using fish as feeders, at least in situations like these, but how do you know they don't feel a thing? I see stuff written like this frequently, so I'm curious. Is there a scientific basis for asserting this?

No I have no scientific data to support that but I could imagine that if they are consumed whole they would feel the stomach acid digest them otherwise they get ground up quickly in the rear jaws.

Drew

 

[spazmattik]

Pretty much.. i would think the impact of the hit plays a good role too. I have seen predators hit a feeder and then spit them out seconds later and they usually look dead or at least in a coma. Let nature take care of nature.

 

[chriscoli]

Very good point and also very interesting as he was referencing cares species. One would not think that any endangered fish should be disposed of. On the other hand people don't always consider that this could actually improve the the gene pool.

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Agreed, and I take care to try my best to save my CARES species....but as anyone who has kept the Vics, Zebra Obliquidens, will have noticed.....they're endangered due to habitat issues, not because they're unsuccessful breeders! I've been overrun with fry at times.

 

[chriscoli]

But, Holly, back to your original point....I totally agree. There are times when I've felt like I let my fish down.

 

[hollyfish2000]

In answer to the question: I euthanize with clove oil.

And I didn't have a tank where I felt the fry would be completely predated -- if I had been at all tempted to take that route.

 

[dogofwar]

I try to save spawns of CARES fish as well. Usually, though, folks around here aren't willing to pay a couple of bucks each for fish that - for whatever reason - are scarce (and thus) more desirable elsewhere. I end up trading CARES fish with folks across the country more than I sell them (locally or to folks across the country).

Successfully breeding and distributing CARES species can actually have the opposite effect on long-term hobby availability. The desire of many hobbyists to keep a fish is inversely related to it's availability.

How many folks in the club are keeping and breeding Hap. sp. "Ruby Green"? I gave away hundreds of them a couple of years ago...

Like Anton said, keep a fish (CARES or otherwise) for several years. I guarantee that it will come in and out of style a couple of times!

Matt

Agreed, and I take care to try my best to save my CARES species....but as anyone who has kept the Vics, Zebra Obliquidens, will have noticed.....they're endangered due to habitat issues, not because they're unsuccessful breeders! I've been overrun with fry at times.

 

[neut]

In my opinion... I agree with the contract. Also agree with the thought that in the wild only a small percentage of fry survive while the rest die or get eaten. In many cases, not just fish, the production of so many offspring is part of the natural mechanism that allows other species to survive. In any case, I don't feel obligated to necessarily preserve or ensure the survival of as many fry as possible or consider it inhumane to let other fish eat them. Sometimes that depends on the circumstances imo, it can be more humane or responsible to let them be eaten than attempt to keep more than I'm equipped to properly care for or can reasonably pass on.

As for fish feeling pain or in what sense they do or don't experience pain, you'll read different things, often depending on the bent of the person commenting. Scientifically, it doesn't appear to be settled-- to what extent or in what way a fish 'feels' pain. Couple of years ago a study got some notoriety for saying that they do feel pain, but a more recent study said not so fast, it's not likely to be in a conscious way that causes suffering:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/08/130808123719.htm

The current overview-study raises the complaint that a great majority of all published studies evaluate a fish’s reaction to a seemingly painful impulse - such as rubbing the injured body part against an object or the discontinuation of the feed intake - as an indication of pain. However, this methodology does not prove verifiably whether the reaction was due to a conscious sensation of pain or an unconscious impulse perception by means of nociception, or a combination of the two. Basically, it is very difficult to deduct underlying emotional states based on behavioural responses. Moreover, fish often show only minor or no reactions at all to interventions which would be extremely painful to us and to other mammals. Pain killers such as morphine that are effective for humans were either ineffective in fish or were only effective in astronomically high doses that, for small mammals, would have meant immediate death from shock. These findings suggest that fish either have absolutely no awareness of pain in human terms or they react completely different to pain. By and large, it is absolutely not advisable to interpret the behaviour of fish from a human perspective.

Not telling anyone what conclusions to draw, just passing this along.