Trouble with Tangs

[CSnyder00]

I've lost several fish this week in my Tang tank. I tested Ammonia - 0. Nitrates - 10. pH - 7.6. All looked great. Did a water change yesterday with no issues after. Checked the temp today after I lost two more fish and the tank temp was 85! The heater wasn't adjusted, and the ambient temp hasn't changed more than a degree or two. Is it possible I have a bad heater? Or should I adjust it down and monitor?

 

[F8LBITE]

Sounds like a bad heater. The only time I've ever killed tangs has been aggression issues or temperature issues.

 

[CSnyder00]

It's back and holding at 80. Apparently it was from ambient temp change. I'm using a probe thermometer that's is very accurate (food grade) with a warning beep at 82 and it's been holding at 80 for several hours now. I'm ready to sell these tangs and get something easier. I don't have money to keep throwing down the drain. It might be something in this water that they don't like. All other tanks I have (3 others) are absolutely fine. So frustrating.

 

[Leffler817]

That sucks man. I agree, it sounds like a bad heater. It seems like my Tangs are way more sensitive to temp swings than my Malawi fish.

 

[CSnyder00]

The more I think about it, the more I think they may also be super sensitive to something that this town puts in the tap water. They are fine for months at a time, eating well, growing, doing fine. Then one week they start crashing and water changes don't help. I've got two Swiss Tropicals cube filters and two 75 gallon HOB filters with foam rather than charcoal in there and it doesn't seem to matter.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

What kind of dechlor are you using? If they are adding chloramine to the system and your dechlor only handles chlorine, that could be the culprit. Water changes wouldn't help because the chloramine would still be in the water.

 

[zendog]

I know a lot of people use tap for tangs, since it's generally 7+ in this area, but I do add some epsom salt (1Tsp) , marine salt (1/2 tsp) and baking soda (1 tsp) to every 5 gallons and my tangs have been rock steady, as long as I'm careful about temperature swings. You might want to try just adding a bit of baking soda at the least to buffer it up a little to see if that makes a difference.

I figure if I can keep them closer to the water they evolved in, they might be better able to deal with other stress. Of course I could be totally off on that, but it's worked for me so far.

 

[CSnyder00]

What kind of dechlor are you using? If they are adding chloramine to the system and your dechlor only handles chlorine, that could be the culprit. Water changes wouldn't help because the chloramine would still be in the water.

I switched to Prime after my last Tang disaster. I add a dose and a half just to make sure I've put enough in. I think this one was temperature, because the deaths have stopped and everyone else looks good. It's holding now at 80.1 degrees.

I know a lot of people use tap for tangs, since it's generally 7+ in this area, but I do add some epsom salt (1Tsp) , marine salt (1/2 tsp) and baking soda (1 tsp) to every 5 gallons and my tangs have been rock steady, as long as I'm careful about temperature swings. You might want to try just adding a bit of baking soda at the least to buffer it up a little to see if that makes a difference.

I figure if I can keep them closer to the water they evolved in, they might be better able to deal with other stress. Of course I could be totally off on that, but it's worked for me so far.

As far as buffering the tap, I don't tend to add anything (chemicals) because that adds another variable. More variables mean more potential problems. And since the tap is 7.4-7.6 consistently, I figure that's close enough to 8.0 that I shouldn't worry. Most of these fish are tank raised in this water or water like it anyway, so it's not a pH problem. If they were an acidic fish, I'd agree that something would probably have to be done. I'm just tired of mysterious fish deaths and die offs for such nit picky stuff. The tank is normally kept at 80-81 degrees. When the ambient temperature rose, the temp in my tank went up, which caused the issue. 84-85 degrees is too warm, but 4 degrees? That's tough. I've had South American cichlids that needed treated for diseases and raised the temp 6-8 degrees from their normal 74-76 degree range and they did fine as long as I ran more oxygen. On this tank, there are two HOBS and two cubefilters, which is a ton of oxygenation. I don't know. I'm getting out of the Tang game for now. I'll probably get back into it when my water situation changes in the next few years.

 

[CowPuppet]

Hello!

I just was reading over your difficulties and signed on to throw my two cents in.

I've been keeping Tangs for many years and while I definitely don't know everything I have to come to learn a few weird/unusual things over time about these wonderful little guys.

One lesson learned is that when things go "wrong" in a Tanganyikan tank it is rarely if ever just one thing.

The temperature alone would not have been enough for your Tangs to go belly up. During this last year my area was hit by Hurricane Matthew, we went without power for 6 days. The temperature on my tanks was 86 the whole time. I did "agitate" the water every few hours but besides that nothing else could be done and I lost not a single fish in any tank (Two 75g, two 40 breeders, and four 20g longs).

Point being -- there is another issue at work in addition to the temperature that is wearing them down.

I'm not sure what your present stock list is on your tank. I found an old forum post where you seemed to be adding or potentially adding fish that while on paper may sound like they work together, would actually stress each other out. That long term stress combined with a higher temperature would definitely lead to some problems.

10 gold ocellatus in 75g is too many if that is what you stuck with. I have 5 in a 75g with 40+ shells and that is about the max (There are rock dwellers in the tank too, but they occupy a different space). The gold ocellatus are not colony building like multi's and are far more aggressive than their pearly counterparts.

If you added any form of catfish that would be additional stress on the shellies as well. I made that mistake in one of my first Tang tanks. The lucipinnis/petricola are constantly going to infringe on the shellies territory whether or not you see it (it is often a nocturnal activity). It may seem minor but over time the stress can make them vulnerable to relatively small things like a temperature change.

I'm so sorry that you have had such a hard time. I'd be more than happy to throw more input your way if you'd like but I'd definitely need to know your stocking list. Tanganyikans are really fun and hardy fish but they do come with their difficulties.

All the best,

John

 

[CSnyder00]

Hello!

I just was reading over your difficulties and signed on to throw my two cents in.

I've been keeping Tangs for many years and while I definitely don't know everything I have to come to learn a few weird/unusual things over time about these wonderful little guys...

John

I've got 5 Gold Ocellatus, a few small bristlenose plecos, and 6 White Calvus left.The calvus are juvies and don't seem to pay any mind to the Golds. Occasionally the Golds have to kick the Calvus and plecos from their shell, but that's about it. I knew that later on I would have to rehome the Golds, as the Calvus would get too big to keep them both.

I agree that it is more than the temp. I can't imagine a 5 degree swing killing fish, but that's the only thing I could think of. Normal tank temps fluctuate 2-3 degrees without issue as you have already mentioned above.

As for stocking, I've been told that 10 Ocellatus Gold in a 75 gallon tank was more than enough space given that I could spread out the shells to different parts of the tank. I would love to see your source of information, as you seem to know more about these fish than your average bear. I'm a research junkie when it comes to fish. I don't mind accumulating more knowledge... Anyway, 10 of them seemed to work for a while. The fish that I've lost have been the larger fish. Not sure what correlation that has, but it's worth noting. I had a complete tank die off several months back due to me being an idiot (water conditioner added late, large water change with a lower temperature, stirring up the bottom during said water change after removing a rock wall to clean, etc.), so these were all smaller new fish. I no longer have the Petricola or the Julies.

Honestly, I'm ready to give up on them. I love them both, but I can't keep subjecting them to the stress and killing them. I need to stay in my lane for now until I can dedicate a species specific tank to them and more time to them. I can do weekly water changes easy enough and I feed and watch them multiple times per day. For some reason I've had crappy luck with Tangs. All of my other fish seem to do extremely well. Not sure what the issue is at this point.

 

[CSnyder00]

Hello!

I just was reading over your difficulties and signed on to throw my two cents in.

John

Also, yes. Any input would be great. I like the Calvus and would be willing to keep them if you think I can pull it off. I know they will get bigger and, generally, larger fish tend to be more hardy. However, devoting the 75 gallon all to them seems silly. Is there anything you might recommend keeping with them? Can I bring any other Africans into the mix? Maybe a mouth brooding Victorian cichlid species?

 

[CowPuppet]

I'll see if I can't pull some direct links for the information on Gold Ocellatus. The general rule of thumb among my fellow Tang keepers in my area is that each gold occie gets 6" of territory out from their central or main shell in every direction. It can be more or less depending on fish personality but it is usually about right. The females take territory as well as the males and are slightly less aggressive.

I am sure there are people who have jammed a bunch together successfully but that requires some serious tank/behavior observation and a fantastic tank arrangement.

I'll find a link before too long and send it your way and I'm taking a pic of my 75g with occies to post here as well.

As for the Calvus, I love them! You can keep them with other cichlids but I have never ventured into Victoria cichlids. I couldn't tell you the first thing about them.

Calvus and Comps are more durable than many cichlids due to their defense mechanism. Watch something go after a Calvus and look what it does! It will turn into a "c" or "u" shape flattening out the armor like scales for defense. It's really cool (or I'm a huge fish nerd, either way).

The one thing about the Calvus will be their crushingly slow growth rate. You don't want to put them with anything that will grow fast enough to bully them successfully.

The list of Tanganyikans you can keep with Calvus is very large. I've kept them with N. Tretocephalus, Comps, Julies, caudopunctatus, Paracyps, etc etc.

You do want to remember that Calvus are fry-eaters. It is literally what they are designed/evolved for. I used to keep a small group of daffodil pulcher with Calvus just to weed out the large amount of young from their breeding. If you want young, you want to get rid of the Calvus.

One again though I have no idea about Victoria cichlids. My experience is only with Tangs and Malawi. I apologize for spelling errors on specific latin names.

I'll lurk around if you have more questions or if I missed something.

All the best,

John

 

[CSnyder00]

I'll see if I can't pull some direct links for the information on Gold Ocellatus. The general rule of thumb among my fellow Tang keepers in my area is that each gold occie gets 6" of territory out from their central or main shell in every direction. It can be more or less depending on fish personality but it is usually about right. The females take territory as well as the males and are slightly less aggressive.

I am sure there are people who have jammed a bunch together successfully but that requires some serious tank/behavior observation and a fantastic tank arrangement.

I'll find a link before too long and send it your way and I'm taking a pic of my 75g with occies to post here as well.

As for the Calvus, I love them! You can keep them with other cichlids but I have never ventured into Victoria cichlids. I couldn't tell you the first thing about them.

Calvus and Comps are more durable than many cichlids due to their defense mechanism. Watch something go after a Calvus and look what it does! It will turn into a "c" or "u" shape flattening out the armor like scales for defense. It's really cool (or I'm a huge fish nerd, either way)...

I have seen the Calvus behavior when dealing with each other. It's quite cool. Both the Calvus and the Shellies also liked it when my pleco eggs hatched. My bristlenoses are so prolific. I just took the wrigglers and dumped them in. They scooped them all up quick! The good thing about keeping mouth brooders with Calvus is that I can strip the females before they spit, allowing me to save the fry. I'm already planning ahead.

Please do keep the info coming. I've kept many fish species, but the Tangs have presented the hardest challenge to this point. While I like a challenge, I don't want to harm any animal as I "learn" my way through keeping them. That's not fair to the fish. I know that Calvus can be kept one male to several females and that I should only keep one male once they start breeding. I know the female lays eggs in a spot the male cannot enter and I've seen them in action breeding online and guarding eggs in person.

Thanks for the info!

Cory

 

[CSnyder00]

Tank temp dropped from 81 to 77 last night. Definitely a heater failure. I will have a new one tonight. Two more Golds look to have labored breathing. All Calvus and other three Golds look fine. Temp spare heater installed this morning.

 

[CSnyder00]

So after that last report and before I got the new heater, the old one again had tried to fry the fish. It took it from 77 to 83. Luckily I had a probe thermometer with a warning beeper and removed the old heater and left the undersized one on until the new one arrived. When the new one came (Aqueon 250W pro) The tank was at 78-79 degrees. I set the heater temp to 80 and set the probe thermometer warning to 82. An hour later it was at 80 and it was still at 80 as of 9 AM today. Seems like I had a bad heater all along. I also decided to move the remainder of my shellies to a 10 gallon by themselves, thinking that the Calvus may be stressing them out and causing deaths. I noticed a few of the larger Calvus fighting each other, which means they were likely fighting the shellies, which could be the other factor I was trying to find. They didn't do it for long, but this tells me that they are starting to get territorial. After this week, I wasn't taking any more chances.

As soon as I moved the Golds over to the 10 gallon, they started digging in the sand and burying the shells (something they had not been doing in the 75). It may turn out to be a blessing in disguise after all.

 

[CSnyder00]

All fish still alive. Golds seem much more content as do the Calvus. Appears that the clash was not good for anyone. Must have been stressing each other out. Good to know and good info for anyone thinking that this would work.