James Jones
New Member
What are you guys thoughts on hybrid cichlids and do they have a place in the hobby?
Hybrid Cichlids
- Thread starter James Jones
- Start date
African Hybrids get more hate than the Central/South American. I keep Orange and Blue Dragon Blood Peacocks which are considered Hybrids. Everything has a place in the hobby because its YOUR hobby and you can keep and breed whatever your heart desires. James Largo from The Cichlid Shack has a Hybrid he created called the Phoenix and it is absolutely stunning!!, Honestly its one of my favorite looking cichlids.
JLW
CCA Members
Wooh, boy, you're opening up a huge can of worms. I don't think there is any topic in this hobby that engenders such strong opinions as hybrids, particularly among cichlids. There is a very large and vocal sect of hobbyists that shout vehemently that "man made monstrosities" have absolutely no place in the hobby, arguing that such hybrids very often display artificial colouration, have unhealthy deformities, and/or are contrary to conservation efforts. I personally disagree just as strongly, and believe that aquarists should be allowed to keep whatever they like.
Its very, very strange (to me), but the anti-hybrid sentiment seems focused only on a handful of hybrids and artificial crosses (e.g., parrot cichlids, super bright peacock crosses, and flowerhorns). Domestic angelfish and discus are almost certainly hybrids, and you can't tell me that a Red Marlboro discus is any less unnatural than a Red Parrot -- or, for that matter, an electric blue veiltail ram, a red koi angelfish, or a super red apisto cacatuoides (and don't even get me started on the hybridisation in non-cichlid fishes!). Yet, these unnatural fish are sought after by hardcore hobbyists.
One of the greatest problems I think we, as a hobby, have is condescension. We have a serious problem with growing and keeping people in the hobby, and there's no quicker way to drive people away than to say, "My fish are somehow better than yours." "Those aren't real fish, you aren't a real hobbyist, you're a newbie," or all of these other variations. This attitude pervades certain segments of the hobby, and it has actually chased even me out of certain clubs. We need to be welcoming to hobbyists of all sorts, whether they're keeping and breeding red brick swordtails or fish with eighteen syllable, Latin names.
One of the most hated fish in the hobby is undoubtedly the GloFish. I've told this story a lot of times before, but I'm going to tell it again. GloFish danios are, of course, genetically modified zebra danios that contain a gene to create a fluorescent protein found in certain marine cnidarians. They're incredibly useful for bioassay and other genetic research, and they've found a huge market among the aquarium industry; you can find GloFish at virtually any pet store, except those that have decided that people who want to keep them are somehow lesser aquarists... (That harmful, supercilious attitude again). I will admit, I didn't like them. They're gaudy, and the idea of a GM fish didn't sit well with me.
Years ago, when they were still new, and I had that attitude, I was taking care of tanks at a long term care facility for seriously ill children. You'd get that one kid every so often who was really excited about the fish tank, and would talk to me every time I was there for 3-4 months, and then ... just wasn't there anymore. And you wouldn't want to ask where that kid went, because "home" wasn't always the answer.
Well, anyhow, the place had a couple of fish tanks scattered around, one of which was a tank tucked in a corner of the a playroom. This playroom was intended for fairly young kids, and the tank was... well, the tank was an after thought. It wasn't on the main floors or hallways, it was out of sight, and it was neglected by the staff. They had more to worry about than fish tanks, and this one was "out of sight, out of mind," so I would sometimes have to replace the fish in it when, for example, the fish food container hadn't been touched for a month.
One day, I was coming up the stairs, and from about 30 feet away, I could see the tank. And in the tank was this pink... thing. It was BRIGHT PINK, and even though it was barely an inch long, I could see it. It was a GloFish. Some kid had talked his parents into buying an effing GloFish and sticking it in my tank! A bright pink GloFish. Well, I'm not going to leave this kid's little fish to stress alone, so I went out to get some regular danios for it. On a whim, I bought a dozen or so GloDanios instead -- the little kids would like it, right? (This was somewhat painful, fish came out of my pocket, and at that time, they were $18 a fish!). Now, tell me, who's going to tell a sick kid that his fish are unnatural monstrosities and don't belong in the world?
Wouldn't you know? That tank went from being the neglected corner tank to the most popular tank in the place. It *always* had kids around it, and I'd get calls about it. Not just care calls from the centre, but calls from parents and others, "Hey, I saw that tank, and they told me to call you to ask about it... how do I do that at home?"
I've seen the same effect with the bright red parrots -- though never so extreme. They're bright, they're hardy, they're personable, they're intelligent, they're reasonably peaceful. What more do you want from a fish?
How many people have seen a really awesome brightly coloured fish like a parrot or a GloFish, or wondered what the heck is up with the giant kok on a flowerhorn and decided to keep them? How many of those people now have 48 tanks in their basements, and might be breeding critically endangered goodeids?
How many of these potential people showed up at some fish club and had a bunch of arrogant jackwagons drive them away with torches and pitchforks because they're keeping "those" fish?
Its very, very strange (to me), but the anti-hybrid sentiment seems focused only on a handful of hybrids and artificial crosses (e.g., parrot cichlids, super bright peacock crosses, and flowerhorns). Domestic angelfish and discus are almost certainly hybrids, and you can't tell me that a Red Marlboro discus is any less unnatural than a Red Parrot -- or, for that matter, an electric blue veiltail ram, a red koi angelfish, or a super red apisto cacatuoides (and don't even get me started on the hybridisation in non-cichlid fishes!). Yet, these unnatural fish are sought after by hardcore hobbyists.
One of the greatest problems I think we, as a hobby, have is condescension. We have a serious problem with growing and keeping people in the hobby, and there's no quicker way to drive people away than to say, "My fish are somehow better than yours." "Those aren't real fish, you aren't a real hobbyist, you're a newbie," or all of these other variations. This attitude pervades certain segments of the hobby, and it has actually chased even me out of certain clubs. We need to be welcoming to hobbyists of all sorts, whether they're keeping and breeding red brick swordtails or fish with eighteen syllable, Latin names.
One of the most hated fish in the hobby is undoubtedly the GloFish. I've told this story a lot of times before, but I'm going to tell it again. GloFish danios are, of course, genetically modified zebra danios that contain a gene to create a fluorescent protein found in certain marine cnidarians. They're incredibly useful for bioassay and other genetic research, and they've found a huge market among the aquarium industry; you can find GloFish at virtually any pet store, except those that have decided that people who want to keep them are somehow lesser aquarists... (That harmful, supercilious attitude again). I will admit, I didn't like them. They're gaudy, and the idea of a GM fish didn't sit well with me.
Years ago, when they were still new, and I had that attitude, I was taking care of tanks at a long term care facility for seriously ill children. You'd get that one kid every so often who was really excited about the fish tank, and would talk to me every time I was there for 3-4 months, and then ... just wasn't there anymore. And you wouldn't want to ask where that kid went, because "home" wasn't always the answer.
Well, anyhow, the place had a couple of fish tanks scattered around, one of which was a tank tucked in a corner of the a playroom. This playroom was intended for fairly young kids, and the tank was... well, the tank was an after thought. It wasn't on the main floors or hallways, it was out of sight, and it was neglected by the staff. They had more to worry about than fish tanks, and this one was "out of sight, out of mind," so I would sometimes have to replace the fish in it when, for example, the fish food container hadn't been touched for a month.
One day, I was coming up the stairs, and from about 30 feet away, I could see the tank. And in the tank was this pink... thing. It was BRIGHT PINK, and even though it was barely an inch long, I could see it. It was a GloFish. Some kid had talked his parents into buying an effing GloFish and sticking it in my tank! A bright pink GloFish. Well, I'm not going to leave this kid's little fish to stress alone, so I went out to get some regular danios for it. On a whim, I bought a dozen or so GloDanios instead -- the little kids would like it, right? (This was somewhat painful, fish came out of my pocket, and at that time, they were $18 a fish!). Now, tell me, who's going to tell a sick kid that his fish are unnatural monstrosities and don't belong in the world?
Wouldn't you know? That tank went from being the neglected corner tank to the most popular tank in the place. It *always* had kids around it, and I'd get calls about it. Not just care calls from the centre, but calls from parents and others, "Hey, I saw that tank, and they told me to call you to ask about it... how do I do that at home?"
I've seen the same effect with the bright red parrots -- though never so extreme. They're bright, they're hardy, they're personable, they're intelligent, they're reasonably peaceful. What more do you want from a fish?
How many people have seen a really awesome brightly coloured fish like a parrot or a GloFish, or wondered what the heck is up with the giant kok on a flowerhorn and decided to keep them? How many of those people now have 48 tanks in their basements, and might be breeding critically endangered goodeids?
How many of these potential people showed up at some fish club and had a bunch of arrogant jackwagons drive them away with torches and pitchforks because they're keeping "those" fish?
Reed
Very Fishe
Leffler817
ask Shawn he is an expert breeder of hybrids
DiscusnAfricans
Past President
In a short rehash of Josh's comments, I think anything that gets people excited about the hobby, and motivates them to start keeping fish can be a good thing.
At some point, the first person to create a 'flowerhorn' might've been considered crazy, but now they're an extremely popular fish, and there are some aquarists who exclusively keep or breed them. Dragon blood and OB peacocks are following in that scenario.
As long as people are clear about what they have when trying to sell their fish, I don't see any issue with hybrids, as long as they're never released, or mislabeled and sold as something they're not.
At some point, the first person to create a 'flowerhorn' might've been considered crazy, but now they're an extremely popular fish, and there are some aquarists who exclusively keep or breed them. Dragon blood and OB peacocks are following in that scenario.
As long as people are clear about what they have when trying to sell their fish, I don't see any issue with hybrids, as long as they're never released, or mislabeled and sold as something they're not.
b considine
a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude
And welcome to the forum, James.
Blaise
Blaise
chriscoli
Administrator
100% agree
JLW
CCA Members
Mike, I hear those caveats all the time, and I gotta say, they're silly. Of course we're never going to release OB peacocks into Lake Malawi, but, let's face it, hobbyists are unlikely in the extreme to ever release any fish into Lake Malawi; for that matter, the whole idea that we'll someday restock populations of Chapilichthys or Ameca or Victorian Haplochromines from aquarium stock is a pipe dream.
No fish should ever be mislabeled or misrepresented. This isn't a problem with OB Peacocks or Flowerhorns, it's more of a problem with the guy who has six types of peacocks in a tank and doesn't remember what they were, because, uh, they were all peacocks, amiright? And, he doesn't know what male bred with what female, just that he found some fry, and he thinks they were Niagara Fire Face Peacocks or something like that. Close enough.
Those misrepresented, accidental hybrids are a definite problem -- but I don't think that's the topic at hand!
No fish should ever be mislabeled or misrepresented. This isn't a problem with OB Peacocks or Flowerhorns, it's more of a problem with the guy who has six types of peacocks in a tank and doesn't remember what they were, because, uh, they were all peacocks, amiright? And, he doesn't know what male bred with what female, just that he found some fry, and he thinks they were Niagara Fire Face Peacocks or something like that. Close enough.
Those misrepresented, accidental hybrids are a definite problem -- but I don't think that's the topic at hand!
DiscusnAfricans
Past President
I was more considering a local release, I don't see many people from here transporting home bred fish to Africa for any purpose.
Well there goes my summer vacation! LOL
FishEggs
Well-Known Member
I dont really mind hybrids as long as it is known what they are. What annoys me is line breeding deformities into a species like the balloon bodies of some fish that were never like that before.
JLW
CCA Members
One man's deformity is another man's beauty.
CSnyder00
Bearded Wonder
One man's deformity is another man's beauty.
True, but intentionally breeding known deformities into living beings brings a whole new set of issues with it. Ask anyone who has ever received a wonderful golden retriever with hip displasia what they think of intentionally breeding animals with known genetic deformities. If people were responsible and didn’t breed their dog with displasia we could literally breed it out of the gene pool. But because people see a dollar sign, they do it anyway and subsequent generations of animals suffer because of it.
THAT is where it crosses the line for me. Color morphs that don’t present health issues to the animal itself, fine. But intentionally breeding animals with known life altering deformities is cruelty. And before this starts, no, I’m not a part of PETA or any other activist group. I just hate seeing deformed fish and other animals bred “because I like the way it looks”. The animals born from such an uninformed breeder suffer the consequences.
So Glofish, eh, okay. It really doesn’t tend to affect the fishes life so much. One could argue it messes with lifespan, but captivity in general does that. But “balloon” rams or misshapen fish or fish with genetic deformities that are bred for their look is not cool.
littlen
CCA Members
Cory, I agree with your post above. Where do long fin/veil tail varieties fit in on your deformity spectrum--out of curiosity?
CichlidAddict
Members
There is a big difference between random and selectively bred hybrids. Random hubrids are accidentally created with no pre selected traits, so they are worthless that can pollute the gene pool. Selectively bred hybrids have a goal to develop certain desirable traits, which include Dragon blood peacock, Thai silk Flowerhorn, fancy discus, and many hybrid live bearers. Some are genetically fixed, meaning that you can reproduce with the same traits. I have no problem with selective hybrids, including glofish, if they can bring more people interest in the hobby,
CichlidAddict
Members
Even deformity is fine for me if it is done with beauty, The large hump of flowerhorn is good if it is not excessive. Long veil angle fish and betta are eloquent to me, but not long veil Oscar ruining their perfect elliptical shape. Fancy goldfish have crooked back and double tail that are beautifully combined, while bubble eyes aren’t my taste and functionally delicate. Most deformed fish aren’t hybrid though except for blood parrot with ugly mouth.
stany
CCA Members
I think "collecting" fish is like collecting art. Collect what you like. I agree the morality of breeding and selling hybrids without full disclosure should be a crime. Our friends in Asia are experts at creating the next best "new" cichlid not found in nature. Heck I have what I thought was an all male tank that has now 11 different sized fry that appear to be different broods of yellow lab and clown lab offspring. Some of these appear to be pure yellow labs but I would never sell them as such.The others are interesting, not as much as a flowerhorn or red parrot discus, but have a dull coloration with striking dorsal and anal fin black striping. They are earmarked for my grandson's local creek community tank. I think it's a personal preference and as long as someone will buy hybrids, like glofish, people will try to create them. I'd rather have a fish found in nature grow up to be the expected result, temperment, size, etc. for my all male tank.
CSnyder00
Bearded Wonder
Stany, this is not a personal attack on you or your opinion, as I know you didn't mean it like this. But something you said didn't sit well and I wanted to address it.
Except you are not "collecting" an inanimate piece of art. You are choosing to keep a live animal whose care you are entrusted with. While the animal certainly provides entertainment and enjoyment, one should respect and be responsible for each animal they keep. Breeding irresponsibly creates a lot of problems and shows little regard or respect for the animal. We as fish keepers are the ones responsible for keeping some semblance of order. Its our money that keeps many of these folks in business. I again state I'm accepting of color morphs and other breeding where the life and function of the fish aren't affected, I just wish that people would take the time to look for the characteristics they want in a natural-occurring fish rather than an unnatural one.
Except you are not "collecting" an inanimate piece of art. You are choosing to keep a live animal whose care you are entrusted with. While the animal certainly provides entertainment and enjoyment, one should respect and be responsible for each animal they keep. Breeding irresponsibly creates a lot of problems and shows little regard or respect for the animal. We as fish keepers are the ones responsible for keeping some semblance of order. Its our money that keeps many of these folks in business. I again state I'm accepting of color morphs and other breeding where the life and function of the fish aren't affected, I just wish that people would take the time to look for the characteristics they want in a natural-occurring fish rather than an unnatural one.
CSnyder00
Bearded Wonder
Some of the long finned varieties of fish occur in nature, some do not. Some are crosses with other like species, which, as I stated above, are fine with me as long as the fishes natural behaviors are not affected by it. I think if the fins are so long that the fish has trouble swimming or eating or performing natural behaviors, it could be inappropriate, but most of this is just simply cosmetic and doesn't detract from the fishes quality of life. On those grounds, I don't see why one would consider this a bad thing. If you want to get picky, you could say that maybe in nature a female wouldn't choose a male mate with longer fins or vice versa, but they tend to breed just fine in captivity, as evidenced by long finned Ancistrus species. So keeping with my original statements, I'd say long fins are fine as long as they don't interfere with the way the fish functions normally.
CSnyder00
Bearded Wonder
This is the perfect example of what I am talking about. Breeding goldfish with crooked spines - bad. Breeding fish with bulging eyes that are prone to issues - bad. Breeding fish that are known to have genetic defects for the purpose of vanity - bad. Flowerhorn humps, eh, that's a tough one to argue where to draw the line because it is technically "normal" for the species to some degree and doesn't affect the flowerhorn's life unless its super large. Long fins, see above post. I understand that the reason this is hard to debate is that people will pay for these abnormalities, but that doesn't make it okay. People pay for things all the time that aren't good for themselves or others. Again, it comes back to how responsible you are with the little fishy lives you are entrusted with. Intentionally creating offspring who will struggle and/or suffer their entire lives just so you have a fish that looks "cool" or "different" is where I argue the line should be drawn.
I think that answers the questions I was asked plus some. Good debate so far and some good points made. It's opening a can of worms, but it's necessary to have these discussions from time to time.