Frustratingly High pH

[Beanie Seagus]

Hi all, a former CCA member here, now out on the west coast In Berkeley California.

With the covid crisis I have found myself with enough time to finally start up some fish tanks.

Problem is I just got around to checking my water parameters out of the Tap, and they are very disappointing.

The pH read off of my tap water (using an API freshwater master test kit and its High Range pH test) shows a dark bright purple when i first shake up the vile, suggesting a pH of 8.8 or higher. Admittedly the color eases off after a few moments, but i suspect thats because the testing particles are falling out of solution.

Upon looking at a local water quality report for Albany/Berkeley, CA fo 2019, the story seems to get even worse. Their figures, based strictly on the water treatment plant where my tap water comes from, suggest a pH range of 9.2 - 9.4. It also provided the following readings regarding hardness (though i'm less certain how to interpret these)

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1


Up until now I've definitely been of the mentality to condition your fish to accept your water, and not the other way around, but given these parameters I'm concerned that I may not be able to keep fish at all!

Are there reliable, and preferably natural ways, to bring the pH down? And for that matter, whats the highest pH I could reasonably expect dwarf cichlids, loaches, tetras, corydoras, and killifish to live in?

 

[FishEggs]

How do you feel about african cichlids?

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Good to hear from you Ben, hope all is well out in Cali. It would probably take some significant work to get your pH and hardness down to a level that would work for those types of levels, unless you found fish that were already acclimated to the local water parameters. Do you have any LFS near you? As Matt mentioned though, the water would be just fine for Rift Lake Cichlids.

 

[Becca]

The water would also be fine for fish like Desert Gobies. They're not the easiest to fine but they are super cool.

 

[Becca]

Some of the sulawesi shrimp might also be an option.

 

[IndianaSam]

Some of the sulawesi shrimp might also be an option.

Those are some cool shrimp and I suppose one nice thing about having liquid rock coming out of your tap.

 

[Tangcollector]

you could try RO or rain water

 

[Beanie Seagus]

Update!!

at the suggestion of some hobbyists I've collected some tap water in a 1 gallon plastic jug and am allowing it to age. Apparently water out of the tap may arrive with low dissolved CO2 levels, and when allowed to sit it will slowly equalize bringing the pH down?

At any rate, with just 8 hours or so of sitting, the pH appears to have dropped 8.2 or less. I'm now setting aside a larger portion of tap water and deliberately letting it sit in an even more open container than a gallon jug. I will be testing it again in 24 hours, then again at 48, and again at 72.

Admittedly a drop from 8.8+ to 8.2- in a few hours seems too good to be true. I'd point to user error, but the API kit is something i've used for years, and theres just no mistaking the Barney the dinosaur color purple the test is showing out of the tap, vs the far mellower beige to light beige i'm getting from the rested water, even if i am a fraction of a mL off in my water sampling size or a fraction of a drop off in the adding of the reagent these results are blatantly separated by a wide margin. Not to mention, i've tested both these waters several times and I am consistently get the same results.


Does this large a drop off make sense to the rest of you guys?



I'll be sure to keep you posted with newer test results, but i'm eager to hear more from you guys.



Considering the 9.4 i was fearing yesterday, 8.2 would be a dream!

I just might be able to squeeze in some of those south american fish yet

 

[Reed]

Hi all, a former CCA member here, now out on the west coast In Berkeley California.

With the covid crisis I have found myself with enough time to finally start up some fish tanks.

Problem is I just got around to checking my water parameters out of the Tap, and they are very disappointing.

The pH read off of my tap water (using an API freshwater master test kit and its High Range pH test) shows a dark bright purple when i first shake up the vile, suggesting a pH of 8.8 or higher. Admittedly the color eases off after a few moments, but i suspect thats because the testing particles are falling out of solution.

Upon looking at a local water quality report for Albany/Berkeley, CA fo 2019, the story seems to get even worse. Their figures, based strictly on the water treatment plant where my tap water comes from, suggest a pH range of 9.2 - 9.4. It also provided the following readings regarding hardness (though i'm less certain how to interpret these)

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1


Up until now I've definitely been of the mentality to condition your fish to accept your water, and not the other way around, but given these parameters I'm concerned that I may not be able to keep fish at all!

Are there reliable, and preferably natural ways, to bring the pH down? And for that matter, whats the highest pH I could reasonably expect dwarf cichlids, loaches, tetras, corydoras, and killifish to live in?

What's up Ben

 

[Beanie Seagus]

What's up Ben

Hey Reed, good to hear from you. Just finished the second year of my PhD. program at Berkeley, now i'm trying to treat myself by setting up some tanks. Got a great lead on 3x 40 gallon breeders and stands, and i'm already culturing some water. Unfortunately its only now that I am thinking to test my tap water (at least its before i put fish in it right?) and its testing for very high pH... hence the current thread.

I've been given some hope though in that the pH seems to be dropping by .6 or more on the scale when the water is allowed to age. Have you ever heard of something this drastic though?

 

[Beanie Seagus]

Good to hear from you Ben, hope all is well out in Cali. It would probably take some significant work to get your pH and hardness down to a level that would work for those types of levels, unless you found fish that were already acclimated to the local water parameters. Do you have any LFS near you? As Matt mentioned though, the water would be just fine for Rift Lake Cichlids.

Thanks for your ideas. There is an LFS around here, and i'll reach out to him but i'm not holding my breathe for that solution. I recall chatting to him about this some months ago when i wondered into his store, and he started rambling about a whole lot of additives and a drawn out procedure. If thats ultimately what it takes to make my water survivable I'll do it, but i'm hoping to find a more straightforward and foolproof solution. I would hate to loose a lot of fish one day down the line because i forgot a small step in a 20 step process. If i can just know to set aside water to let it age for X number of days before i use it in the tank, thats a real easy fix.

 

[Beanie Seagus]

Some of the sulawesi shrimp might also be an option.

Thanks for the ideas. I find myself looking at shell dwellers or peacocks if i can't find a way to bring down the pH. I'm not really much of a shrimp person though.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Thanks for your ideas. There is an LFS around here, and i'll reach out to him but i'm not holding my breathe for that solution. I recall chatting to him about this some months ago when i wondered into his store, and he started rambling about a whole lot of additives and a drawn out procedure. If thats ultimately what it takes to make my water survivable I'll do it, but i'm hoping to find a more straightforward and foolproof solution. I would hate to loose a lot of fish one day down the line because i forgot a small step in a 20 step process. If i can just know to set aside water to let it age for X number of days before i use it in the tank, thats a real easy fix.

The LFS are worth talking to since they'll have direct experience with what works, but I'm glad you found a potential option to test in the meantime.

I think if you add an airstone, or some form of aeration, it would speed up the process. As Greg mentioned, if you set up a RO/DI unit, it would strip out a lot of the hardness and pH. You could also consider adding driftwood or other tannin-leeching botanicals to your water storage, the tannins would lower the pH as the water is aging. I'm currently using driftwood, and a variety of products from Tannin Aquatics to lower the pH, and I'll be starting to use a RO/DI unit soon. My water isn't nearly as bad as yours, but still not ideal for blackwater fish. Let us know when you have a new update.

 

[Beanie Seagus]

Update!

So the 24 hour test results are in, and i'm blown away once again.



On the high pH range test its looking like a pH of 7.8 or lower? I ran a regular range pH test as well, and its still at or above 7.6 on that scale.


Is my water simply devoid of buffers altogether? Or how can we account for this jump from 8.8+ to 7.8- in just 24 hours? Has anyone dealt with something like this before?

I'd be thrilled to use 7.8 water in the tank, and curing water for 24 hours would be real easy. But at this point, can this water be trusted to maintain a constant pH at any level? Do i need to add a buffer? If so what would you guys recommend. I will be sure to continue testing at 48 hours and 72 hours as originally planned.


Also can someone help me decipher these water readings from the water management district in terms of alkalinity, hardness, and buffers present or absent in my water? I'm not exactly sure what to make of these:

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1

Thanks for your help!

 

[Beanie Seagus]

Update after 48 and 72 hour tests.

So the results are in (and in picture form!)

At 48 hours we got on the high pH test this looks to me like 7.4? Maybe the 7.8?


I double checked on the lower pH scale, and got this looks like a 7.6 or maybe closer to 7.2?



At 72 hours on the high pH test we got which again is looking like a 7.4.


Double checked on the lower pH scale just to be sure and this looking like a 7.6.



So in sum the pH results were as follows:

-Straight out of the tap: 8.8+
-24 hours of resting: 7.8- (maybe 7.4)
-48 hours of resting 7.4-7.6
-72 hours of resting 7.4 -7.6


Questions:
1) Do you guys agree with my interpretations of the colors? I always convince myself i'm not reading it right. (are the vials reading 7.4 or 7.8 on the high pH scale?)

2) At this stage would you feel comfortable assuming the pH is 7.4-7.6, once i've been able to let it rest for a time out of the tap?

3) Do you think i should add a buffer to help maintain the pH at around 7.4-7.6? Im afraid it will bounce around more once i start adding substrate, plants, and fish

4) If i should use a buffer, what is the buffer of choice? What do they cost, whats the maintenance and upkeep like, and what are some of the pitfalls of the buffer your recommending. Keep in mind i'm ultimately hoping to keep a German Blue Rams, corydoras, celestial pearl danios, clown loaches, and maybe angels, so i'm not looking for a buffer thats gonna cause the pH to rise (especially not significantly)

5) i suppose a related question is what is my water hardness. While I don't have the tester kit for this, i do have the water districts read out:

Alkalinity, Total as CAc03 (ppm) 22-44
Calcium (ppm) 4-8
Hardness as CaCO3 (gpgf) 1-2
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 14-34
Magneisum (ppm) 1-2
Potasium (ppm) < 1-1

Can any one make sense of this to me in terms of hardness that matters for my pH?


All this said, if i can find a way to maintain something like 7.5 pH water, i should be in fairly good shape. I've also got it on reasonably good authority that folks grow south american fish in my area with little to no trouble.



Thanks for your help!

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

I'd agree on the pH values, with the caveat that those tests can only be so accurate, but I think it puts you in the ballpark.

A buffer could help to maintain stability, pH shifts can be stressful on fish. I've heard of people using one by Seachem, I think it's 'Stable' or 'Stability' but I don't have any practical experience with it. I believe it's goal is to maintain pH closer to 7, so it's still trying to put you in the right direction.

Can't really help you on the hardness, but lower hardness equals more pH variability, so you want some, but the fish you want generally prefer softer water.

If other people in your area have successfully maintained those fish, it seems that you should be fine, but continual testing in the beginning at least is your best bet to make sure things stay on track.