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Hybrid Question

Lively

Members
I know - touchy subject. I'm not looking to breed a hybrid - but I need to know if it is possible for CA and African to cross - both egg layers on rock. Specifically, a Jewel and a Dempsey.

I do not have a Jewel and a dempsey together - I keep species only tanks - with the exception of my mixed africans and I've no intention of breeding them at the moment. If they do breed, the fry will end up fish food for the Jacks until I set each type up in its own tank.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
They won't/can't breed... although some fish from across genuses can/will (e.g. Jack Dempsey and a Red Devil)...

They all used to be the same genus (Cichlasoma...then Heros...). I guess they didn't get the memo :)

Matt
 

longstocking

Members
I wouldn't think so Stacy...

But I have seen pics of a lake malawi fish and a lake tang fish crossing.....

I didn't think that was possible but, anything is possible.
 

Lively

Members
Thanks, guys! I still find the classification system for cichlids confusing - I'm glad I have ya'll to ask!
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
It's the same classification system that is used to classify everything else... it's just that cichlids don't fit as "neatly" into the system as some other animals do.


Thanks, guys! I still find the classification system for cichlids confusing - I'm glad I have ya'll to ask!
 

Lively

Members
Mainly - it is the numerous changes that gets me - makes me glad we have "common" names for most of them! lol
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
The changes come from it being a partially subjective process. A lot of times they also find subtle differences after studying various specimens. Different collection points are often classified differently until they find out what is physiologically similar enough to be the same fish. They can't even get "convicts" situated in a final spot, and they've been around for a while. I'd love to be on the front lines doing the collecting and examination, but its tedious work. It does make it easier having "common names" but sometimes people like to make up new names, and that makes it difficult.

On a different note, how does a man-made hybrid have a name coined? E.g. who coined the name "flowerhorn?" How will it be classified in the future?
 

Lively

Members
Man made fish will never be classified - from what I've read. I'd say that whoever is the first to offer a hybrid on the market gets to name it....don't get why they call it a flowerhorn... no flowers or horns from what i've seen of them... lol
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
Man made fish will never be classified - from what I've read. I'd say that whoever is the first to offer a hybrid on the market gets to name it....don't get why they call it a flowerhorn... no flowers or horns from what i've seen of them... lol
That makes sense. I took an animal diversity class in college and we had to study the taxonomic structure of animals and plants on an evolutionary scale, but we never got to discuss specifics on classification within a genus. Theres still so much to learn. As far as common names go, I guess whoever feels like being creative gets to be the pioneer.
 

Lively

Members
I think I know why, Michael. Just trying to find a definition for genus and species is turning into a real mind wringer... apparently, a genus is defined as a grouping of species - um, okay. It seems the lower you go on the taxonomy scale, the less likely you are to get a decent definition
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
I agree. The taxonomic breakdown goes; Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. In my family diversity class we would always work all the way through family, but only lightly touch on genus. We rarely went as far as to talk about species. The professor said the class would be a few years long if we wanted to get that specific. I had so many tree looking diagrams in my notes it was ridiculous. I enjoyed the material, but it was a diffcult class.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
There was a presentation at the aca by Wayne leibel on the difficulty of defining a species. The traditional type approach amply doesn't account for the variability in populations of some fish and the constant forces that cause them to rapidly adapt

It would be great if such presentations were available online... Perhaps even to aca members ... But alas
 

Lively

Members
When I started to research it - I found out that there isn't even a standard for a "species" - some want it to be by DNA, others by physical charateristics. Even the sort of agreed upon definition "a group of animals that will interbreed under normal circumstances" isn't even accurate.

The more I read on it, the more I think that it would be more logical to base it on DNA - specifically common alleles within a group of animals and then break it down to breeds (sub species) the way they do it for dogs. If you went off physical charateristics, you'd say that a german shepard was in no way related to a mexican hairless - yet they are the same species. I think this method would probably work better for fish than how they are doing it now...

But, I'm just a common laymen... what do I know? :)
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
DNA would definitely be the way to go for accuracy. I think the logistics, cost, and time it would take will prevent this from ever happening on a global scale. As Matt mentioned, evolutionary traits can develop in relatively short periods of time, so physical characteristics can only be reasonably accurate in reference to a time period. According to one theory, all the rift lake fish evolved from one common ancestor, but look at all the differences in body shape, feeding habits, breeding methods, etc. New species are still being discovered and its a dynamic process. Unfortunately, I don't think theres enough money to fund the research to address this issue in a reasonable time span.
 
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