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Frustrated by females that don't hold

I am frustrated with my Benga and Ngara peacock females that don't hold. Typically, they had a mouth full of eggs on day 1, half empty on day 2, and empty out by day 3 and 4. This has happened several times so it has nothing to do with their immaturity. It appears that they have been genetically predisposed to abort. What can I do to make them hold longer or shall I strip them to incubate the eggs artificially on day 1 when they still carry most eggs.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Could be that they need a quiet(er) place to hide.

I liked to use bundles of PVC rubber-banded together into "condos"...

Matt
 
The breeding pairs are isolated in an uncrowded 30 and 75 gal with only a few weak tankmates that won't harrass the females. They are domesticated probably F10 to F20 strain that have lost the instinct to hold.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
That they're being kept as pairs is likely the issue.

They're harem-spawning fish and having multiple females per male.

Matt
 

zackcrack00

Members
I strip all my mouthbrooders the day I see holding in fear of this. Tumblers are very easy to make and only require bullet caps from sponge filters, airline, air pump, pantyhose, sponge filter plastic tube, and rubber bands.


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Tooz100

Members
Have you tried putting them in a busy tank as i find the maternal instinct kicks in when they have to protect. Mine get seriously defensive when anyone comes near when they are holding , i only remove them from the main tank when they are fit to burst. I find as they are ina busy tank that they hold the fry until they are ready to free swim instantly upon release. Works for me .


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I strip all my mouthbrooders the day I see holding in fear of this. Tumblers are very easy to make and only require bullet caps from sponge filters, airline, air pump, pantyhose, sponge filter plastic tube, and rubber bands.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

I have the tumbler, just never tried it in day 1 . Isn't the survival rate very low if she is stripped too early? It's a dilemma that if I wait too long, there aren't any eggs left.
 

npbarca

Members
I always let mine hold naturally. I leave them in the tank and monitor them. When they get 2-4 days of when I think they will spit, ill put them in a hang on net. If they don't spit within 4 days of the net, then I strip them.
 

verbal

CCA Members
You might try separating the female when you notice them holding. It could well be that with only one female the male is harassing the female into spitting the eggs.

Getting more females would be another option.
 
I have had fish do this and here are my conclusions
-Fish are to young
-Fish is being harassed, usually if there is only one female and one or more males that want nothing more than to force her to breed. Typical men fish.
-Insecure with her setting/safety
-not enough time to recover from prevoius spawns
This is entirely speculation but my experience is that if the enviornment is not correct for raising young the female gives up. I see this in tanks with lots of larger fish where I never pull females. Its as if they realize its a waste of time. It takes an extremely dedicated mother to commit to holding to term sometimes the conditions leading up to spawning weren't favorable and other time the conditions after spawning aren't favorable. Either way I don't believe its a genetic predisposition but more a product of circumstances


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I think both environment and genetic disposition have influence on bad mothers. I don't think grown ups remember they were stripped, but successive generations of raising stripped babies will concentrate the genetic make up of bad mothers . It won't happen in the wild because only good mothers can procreate.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
I really don't think that most Benga or Ngara peacocks in the hobby are that many generations from wild (the way that, say, fancy angelfish are).

The ability to successfully procreate is pretty deeply ingrained in fish, which is why we're successful at all at breeding them in glass boxes. If Malawi mouthbrooders from different genuses (and their hybrid offspring) can figure out how to breed, then your fish can. Just give them time and conditions to their liking.

Every male and female fish aren't necessarily compatible. Females won't hold unfertilized eggs (for long). Maybe the male's shooting blanks. Or for some other reason not fully going through the motions.

I'd add more females, hiding places and other things already suggested before coming to the conclusion that the fish are somehow genetically incapable for holding.

Good luck,
Matt
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
Make sure the females are well fed and conditioned too; females won't hold to term if they don't think they can survive the 3 weeks of fasting.
 

neut

Members
I realize the thought of too far removed from wild seems like a reasonable assumption to make and you'll see this theory advanced about some species, but I don't think it generally applies to peacocks. Too many peacocks have been line bred or crossed or tank raised for generations and are still great breeders. I bred peacocks for years and among others worked with (line bred) Eureka reds for years, and I line bred mine further to get the biggest and best color. Also bred ob peacocks a little, which are hybrids and even that much further line bred for color varieties. No problems with them holding or getting fry.

I also bred ngara and benga and at least for me the ngara in particular were somewhat less productive than some of the other species I had, not bad breeders, just not as easy for me as some of the others I had. If anything, from my experience I'd speculate that the farther from wild, the less particular peacocks get and, if anything, easier to breed.

Among the things mentioned already I'd lean toward the comfort level of the females in the tank being a factor and that peacocks aren't naturally a pair breeding fish. Peacock males can be hard on females, lot of harassment, constant displaying, chasing, etc, especially a single female. Doesn't mean it can't be done as a pair, but standard practice is multiple females for a male.

A few other observations, based on experience--

Stripping eggs or stripping early can intimidate some females from holding-- not always, but it's so stressful for some individual females that they seem to compensate by swallowing the eggs to avoid the stress. Best thing ime is to leave them be for a while, let them do what they do and later on strip fry, not eggs-- actually, I got to where I always waited for fry, anyway, easier to let the female do the work. Or-- an option that sometimes worked for me for balky females was to move them to a maternity tank and let them tend and release fry without interfering at all until the female lost interest in the fry, which is what happens at a certain point. After that point she went back to the main tank.

Conditioning is a good point, but with decent food not usually something that takes special effort just to get peacocks to spawn or hold ime. With peacocks, probably more of a factor in numbers of fry than whether you get fry-- just my opinion.

Every so often you simply get an individual female that's just not a good breeder. Doesn't matter what you do, she's just not into it, so to speak. Some may not produce many eggs, some not interested in spawning, may not pick up the eggs or even eats them, or won't hold them past a day or two, etc. I'd even get one occasionally that seemed to disrupt other females from spawning. My guess is now and then you get a genetic or developmental hormone imbalance in an individual female. Same principle as in a given spawn you might get other imperfections that you'd cull out, but in this case an imperfection you can't see.

So, here's where a modified version of your thought about too far from wild could apply imo, and that is you might get a breeding line of not the best maternal females, just not passing on those traits, maybe even inadvertently being selected that way by the breeder(s). Maybe in selecting for size or color they're unintentionally selecting against the wiring for breeding-- the biggest females don't always make the best breeders ime-- then after so many generations you've developed a line that doesn't breed well. Appears as though it's because they're Fxxx, but it's not that so much as the individual fish or the individual breeding strain.
 
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