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Are wild caught fish verifiable and worth the investment?

Vinh2o

Vinh2o

Members
Are wild caught African Cichlids verifiable, or do you just have to take the persons word for it? Are they worth the investment to add fresh blood and strength to your breeding program?


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chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
Do your homework and buy from reputable vendors. Ask around for recommendations and ask the vendor pointed questions about the origin of the fish. The honest ones won't hesitate to answer you. For example, I won't hesitate to recommend Dave's Rare Fish as an excellent source for African Cichlids.

As for "worth it"? It depends. For most of my purposes, usually no. But sometimes it's the only way to get the fish. But if I have a choice, I try NOT to get wild caught. I find that they take more time to acclimate to tank conditions, may be fussy eaters initially, and may have a significantly different temperament than the rest of the group you're adding them to if you have an existing collection. On the other hand, if you're concerned about inbreeding in your collection, they might be a good choice. You need to ask yourself if it's worth taking this fish out of the wild to add to your collection. In some cases, it's the demand of the hobby trade that's put the fish at risk. Personally, I don't want to contribute to furthering that demise if there are locally bred fish available. Do your homework and read up on if the fish is threatened, and if so...why?

(ok, off my soapbox now) :)
 
Tangcollector

Tangcollector

Active Member
Staff member
I agree with Christine. Purchasing WC fish just encourages more removal from the wild. If you buy quality fish from multiple sources you can keep your strains clear and have beautiful fish. If it is a CARES species then you are doing your part in the continuation of that species. I have gotten WC fish but right now it would be my last option or I would move on to something else.
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
For every entity selling actually wild African cichlids (or F1s) there are probably several who are selling pond raised fish (or babies of pond raised fish) as such.

I trust Dave without question on African cichlids.

There are a limited number of exporters of fish from Malawi and Tanganyika and fish that aren't on their export lists have a very low likelihood of actually being wild.

Are wild African cichlids "worth it"? I guess it depends. Having verifiable F1 fry from wild fish will certainly make them more marketable to the people who value the provenance of fish. So it could be "worth it" if trying to sell the offspring to people who believe it's worth it (although, again, with all of the people selling fake wild and F1 fish, it's made it that much harder for anyone to get any decent money for fish).

Will mixing wild fish into a group of captive-raised one improve the coloration, health, etc. of the offspring of the group? Maybe. Or maybe not. If you're mixing fish of unknown provenance of fish from known provenance, the offspring are of unknown provenance. There is an assumption that wild fish are - by definition - more colorful, larger, "better" than captive bred ones (with deterioration in man-desired aesthetics with each successive generation from wild). This simply isn't the case (and sometimes just the opposite).

As Christine noted, there are a lot of real issues that come with real wild fish. Parasites, behavior, cost, impact on wild populations, higher losses, etc.

My advice: get captive fish of known provenance from a high quality source like Dave. And don't mix them with random fish from here, there and everywhere.

Matt

PS When Ad Konings spoke about this at AquaMania a couple of years ago, I proposed (tongue in cheek) that all of the people selling colorful, captive bred Africans as wild were probably the best thing for all involved: There is no impact on wild populations, vendors can sell for decent prices (without the shipping/losses associated with actual imports from Africa), hobbyists can tell everyone that they have the best, most colorful, rarest wild fish and not have to actually deal with all of the issues of having wild fish. ;)
 
npbarca

npbarca

Members
My only wild caught fish are a group of Tropheops. The reason I got them was that they were the only ones I could find of that species (Mauve yellow).
 
Localzoo

Localzoo

Board of Directors
dogofwar said:
For every entity selling actually wild African cichlids (or F1s) there are probably several who are selling pond raised fish (or babies of pond raised fish) as such.

I trust Dave without question on African cichlids.

There are a limited number of exporters of fish from Malawi and Tanganyika and fish that aren't on their export lists have a very low likelihood of actually being wild.

Are wild African cichlids "worth it"? I guess it depends. Having verifiable F1 fry from wild fish will certainly make them more marketable to the people who value the provenance of fish. So it could be "worth it" if trying to sell the offspring to people who believe it's worth it (although, again, with all of the people selling fake wild and F1 fish, it's made it that much harder for anyone to get any decent money for fish).

Will mixing wild fish into a group of captive-raised one improve the coloration, health, etc. of the offspring of the group? Maybe. Or maybe not. If you're mixing fish of unknown provenance of fish from known provenance, the offspring are of unknown provenance. There is an assumption that wild fish are - by definition - more colorful, larger, "better" than captive bred ones (with deterioration in man-desired aesthetics with each successive generation from wild). This simply isn't the case (and sometimes just the opposite).

As Christine noted, there are a lot of real issues that come with real wild fish. Parasites, behavior, cost, impact on wild populations, higher losses, etc.

My advice: get captive fish of known provenance from a high quality source like Dave. And don't mix them with random fish from here, there and everywhere.

Matt

PS When Ad Konings spoke about this at AquaMania a couple of years ago, I proposed (tongue in cheek) that all of the people selling colorful, captive bred Africans as wild were probably the best thing for all involved: There is no impact on wild populations, vendors can sell for decent prices (without the shipping/losses associated with actual imports from Africa), hobbyists can tell everyone that they have the best, most colorful, rarest wild fish and not have to actually deal with all of the issues of having wild fish. ;)
Click to expand...

+1 you and Christine


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londonloco

londonloco

Members
The only time I buy wc is if the fish are not available tank raised. I guess I have a "thing" about taking fish out of the wild. Doesn't mean it's wrong to buy wc fish, it just means I've got a "thing" about it. I always Q before adding fish to an established tank.
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
I'm certainly not opposed to keeping wild caught fish in general (I have plenty) - millions more fish are caught for eating than are for the aquarium hobby.

My primary concern is when collection for the hobby can impact wild populations. The rift lakes represent a prime opportunity for this to occur (and it already has). Outside of some widely distributed species, the natural range of a particular geographic variant of a species in Lake Malawi or Tanganyika is quite small. Concerted collection of the "nicest" fish from these niche populations - which might number 1,000 or fewer fish naturally - for a few years could rapidly diminish their numbers and irreparably change the fish.

Rift Lake cichlids are generally readily bred in captivity and widely farmed. And because they're harem spawners, there's plenty of genetic diversity possible in even a small group of fish.

So why the demand for wild ones? The unfortunately widely held (mis)perception that wild fish are "better" and that only wild fish are colorful and "pure". There's I'm sure a bit of one-upsmanship as well.

Sadly, I think that these misperceptions are a result of lack of responsible behavior and trust in our hobby. There are no shortage of poorly bred and mislabeled rift lake fish in our hobby. I always wonder what happens to all of the thousands of wild rift lake fish that come into the US each year - some are in breeding groups but God knows what happens to the rest.

Matt
 
George

George

CCA Charter Member and person in charge of the we
I have to agree with most of what you have posted so far and would push tank raised over wild caught but there is one very good reason to bring in wild caught from time to time. Now this may not apply to all but many fish are so established in the hobby that almost all you see is tank raised fish. They are generally beautiful and easier to breed than wild caught. Wild caught fish can be a MUCH bigger challenge to breed. There are many that fall into this category but a common one we can all relate to is the angel fish. Wild caught angels do not look like anything in the trade and are HARD to breed. Some of you have seen the wild angels brought back from Peru on the Margarita Tours trips. Nothing like them in the hobby. I have personally tried to get them to some of my friends who breed all sorts of fish. So far I do not know of anyone breeding these Peruvian angels.

These angels do look different from what we have but that may not mean they are really all that different. When we breed generation after generation of fish we often change the way they look over time. Sometimes this is selective breeding and we do it on purpose. Often we do it unintentionally without even realizing it. Years ago one of the well known Killi guys got some wild caught chocolate australs (hope I spelled that right) and was amazed at how they differed from what he had. I may even have the fish wrong but it happened as I have outlined.

The point? (darn george you sure are wordy) If you are buying wild caught, you should have a good reason before foolishly wasting money. If you have a good reason, and there are some, go for it. The best reason - you are the one there wild catching them. Go on a collecting trip.


George
 
chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
Good point, George! And to get back to one of the OP's original questions....they're certainly verifiable if you're the one that caught them!
 
Avatar

Avatar

Plenipotentiary-at-large
Wrong question...

Deem foremost whether one qualifies to own anything wild. If spawning such is a remote, unlikely or largely wishful/fictitious proposition, then no. Period. If on the other hand, such a proposition is far from fantasy as attested to by past success and further qualified with intent/ability to offset future demand on wild populations by spreading the resulting captive-bred spawn far and wide, perhaps.

That's a bit at variance with the whole "Nuke the Whales" mentality but as the demigods of our wee aquatic kingdoms we Keepers tend to be a bit conscientious of such - bless our watery souls.

"Ask not what your habitat can do for you, but what you can do for your habitat." - Tony Horos, 2012 (in a somewhat compromised/challenged/medicated but nonetheless lucid state)
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
Sam!


Avatar said:
Deem foremost whether one qualifies to own anything wild. If spawning such is a remote, unlikely or largely wishful/fictitious proposition, then no. Period. If on the other hand, such a proposition is far from fantasy as attested to by past success and further qualified with intent/ability to offset future demand on wild populations by spreading the resulting captive-bred spawn far and wide, perhaps.

That's a bit at variance with the whole "Nuke the Whales" mentality but as the demigods of our wee aquatic kingdoms we Keepers tend to be a bit conscientious of such - bless our watery souls.

"Ask not what your habitat can do for you, but what you can do for your habitat." - Tony Horos, 2012 (in a somewhat compromised/challenged/medicated but nonetheless lucid state)
Click to expand...
 
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