Frontosa variants and color morphs

Is anyone familiar with the 'red' 'red dwarf' or 'black widow' color morphs of frontosas. Naturally occuring variants,or line breed color morphs or chemical enhanced fish by con artist breeders.
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Opions and thoughts.

They're line bred (selectively bred by man), as far as I know, although it's possible that multiple Cyphotilapia species and/or geographic variants of a single Cyphotilapia species went into creating them.

Either way, really no different than "fancy" angelfish, discus, rams, etc. in my book.

Matt

I recall Anthony saying during his talk on Frontosas that if they mention a color in their name, they're most likely line bred.

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Man made (line bred) fish from basic Burundi stock. Most variations of 'red' frontosa aren't that red, they generally have lightened black bars with some red-ish, brownish or rust color in them-- they've also been called 'copper band'. Black widow have also been called 'Panda'. Variations on either theme have been around for years.

chriscoli said:

I recall Anthony saying during his talk on Frontosas that if they mention a color in their name, they're most likely line bred.

Click to expand...

That's not true at all. "Zaire Blue", "blue moba", "purple Kitumba" "purple moba", "Nangu blue neon", 'yellow Kavala", "Karema blue" are examples of legitimate fish from the lake that are sometimes given color adjectives by hobbyists or sellers, since blue, yellow, or purple are all natural colors in fronts. The yellow in some types is in their fins (it doesn't describe an overall yellow fish) and in some moods and/or lighting some individual Zaire blue types (moba, kapampa, kitumba, mikula and others) can get a sort of magenta in their fins.

...Although they're generally a well regarded importer/seller, the company that originally marketed the panda/black widow front has taken some heat over the years, gotten a lot of very negative forum comments about the fish from cyphotilapia enthusiasts/purists, to the extent this company has threatened legal action over posts using their images of the fish in a negative context. (they're in Germany)

I've seen some bad quality common lfs Burundi with really bad bars that weren't far off from so called "black widow" fronts. Just about anyone determined enough to do so could selectively breed badly barred Burundi to come up with their own black widows. If you compared some of the early images of panda/black widow fronts with more recent ones, you'd see where they've progressively taken the vertically oriented markings (what's supposed to be their bars) and tried to turn them more into horizontal blotches.

Cyphotilapia have apparently not changed much over the history of the lake. They're not considered directly ancestral to or descended from current fish in the lake. In other words, their genetics allow limited morphological variety and they don't change much-- so, despite the efforts of humans to come up with a novel frontosa to sell, there's only so much you can do with them.

Just as well to leave them alone and appreciate what they are imo.

Just got thinking about "red dwarf" frontosa, whatever that's supposed to be.

There is a legitimate fish from the lake that's considered a sort of dwarf Cyphotilapia, "mbete blue" from Zambia. (Technically, it's not a C. frontosa but a C. gibberosa-- just like the Zaire blue types, mpimbwe, etc. (Cyphotilapia in the roughly southern half of the lake are gibberosa, distinguished by different facial markings, scale counts, etc. C. frontosa include both 6 and 7 stripe types in the roughly northern half of the lake.) In any case, mbete blue are rare in the hobby (and not popular or well known). Doubtful anyone who's taken the trouble to acquire them is the type who would somehow try to turn them into 'red dwarf'.

If Anthony mentioned above is PCCA Anthony, then he has had mbete blue (and he called them "mbete blue") and he knows as well as anyone some of the legitimate wild Cyphotilapia types with color adjectives sometimes attached to their names. If this is the same Anthony I'd have to think the above comment was sort of off the cuff with unintended consequences or else possibly misunderstood.

...In fact, if it's the same Anthony, his name on a well known Cyphotilapia forum is "Zaire Blue".

Mbete blue males reportedly top out between 8-10 inches last I heard; large males of most other Cyphotilapia types can be 12 inches plus.