• You liked BFD7 now you should join this forum and of course become a club member to see what CCA is all about.
  • Thank you to everyone who registered and showed up for the BIG Fish Deal #7.

Fishroom Emergency

zackcrack00

Members
Sponge filter should be fine if the air flow rate is high. Low oxygen levels are a remote possibility, but if there is no obvious other explanation, it should be considered.

High aeration in any tank is better than lower as far as oxygen levels go. You almost cannot get too much air into a tank. But high air flow is hard on decorations and plants.

Can you confirm that you are using sodium chloride to regenerate your nitrate filter?

Can you specify the unit being used to remove nitrates? Are any electrodes being used?

So you changed half the water in all the tanks and lost half the fish? Was the fish loss in the order of refilling?

How long was the nitrate filter in use before your water change?

COuld the installer have put chlorox into the system to make sure the drinking water was safe? It is common to flush the household pipes with chlorox after plumbing changes.

Maybe the ordor you smelled was chlorox.

I can't get the specifics on the filter, the plumber hasn't answered my messages. The filter was installed a week ago today, the water runs for 5-10 minutes before I use it each time. I changed 25-75% of the water in the tanks on 10/8/15 in the evening, and fish loss started at least 36 hours later on 10/10/15 and is still happening. There were 10 tanks that received water changes. Of those, seven tanks received water changes 50% or more on 10/8. The only tanks affected are 5 of the seven that had 50%+ changes. All others seem fine.

In one 10g tank, I had 6 P. neyereri at 1"-1.5". I've lost 1-2 of those, and the others aren't doing well. In another 10g tank, I had 4 wild-type swordtails. Of those, I've lost 1-2. The others don't seem to be doing well. The other tanks of the seven that seem affected follow the same pattern. The only exception is a 10g that housed 2 goodeids and 3 baby BNs. The goodeids are dead, the BNs look perfectly healthy.

Symptoms of affected fish are very odd. They always have fins jutted out, as if "flaring" or showing off. Not closed and clamped. They occasionally swim erratically through the tank, as if not in control of their bodies. For example, a swordtail swam from the bottom to the top very dramatically, turning and pulsing, even doing corkscrews. Also, one fish I have pictured below has a red patch on his side. Some fish have these patches, and they occur on both sides. Totally symmetrical.



Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 

zackcrack00

Members
I'm sorry. that sucks. I recently had an unexplained nitrite spike after a water change and lost a few females before I realized the issue and was able to get it quickly correctly. As this happens to me occasionally, I have no explanation. And I do use aged water. I would encourage a bit of an experiment. Do a water change in a small tank and see what happens. I'd also encourage you to age water in a big trash can, which is what I do.

I actually did this on a betta. A little lazy but other than that he eats and seems fine. Only certain fish seem to be affected.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
I am not sure how you can have high nitrate in your tap water. Are you on public water or on private well. EPA imposes stringent limit of how much nitrate can be present in public water, because high nitrate in water can cause "blue baby" disease. If you are on private well, high nitrate is an indication of impact from septic tank or other contamination source. If nitrate is high enough to kill fish, it's high enough to harm human health. Check it out.
 

zackcrack00

Members
I am not sure how you can have high nitrate in your tap water. Are you on public water or on private well. EPA imposes stringent limit of how much nitrate can be present in public water, because high nitrate in water can cause "blue baby" disease. If you are on private well, high nitrate is an indication of impact from septic tank or other contamination source. If nitrate is high enough to kill fish, it's high enough to harm human health. Check it out.

Private well, farm runoff. Anywhere from 40-80 mg/l (ppm). It wouldn't kill fish, but is unsafe. This is the reason for the filtration system.


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 

Frank Cowherd

Global Moderators
Staff member
You might be seeing the effects of high nitrate ion on the fish now from them being exposed to high nitrate ion before you got the nitrate filter.

http://www.fishtanksandponds.co.uk/aquarium-science/nitrate.html

this site indicates 25 ppm nitrate ion is too high for aquarium fish. Different types of fish have different levels of tolerance to nitrate ions. Trout can only tolerate about 8 ppm. Goldfish can tolerate 1000 ppm. Effects of over exposure to nitrate is internal organ damage.

Internal organ damage could explain the brusing you are seeing on the fish, that is the red spots that appear to be internal.

Nitrate really should be below 10 in my opinion. If the nitrate level increases slowly as is the case when a tank does not undergo routine water changes for 6 months or so, the fish can tolerate the slow rise in nitrate ion concentration. These fish often die when the water is suddenly changed, but of course there is a lot going on in such a change from heavily polluted water to fresh clean water. Fish do not like rapid changes.
 

Localzoo

Board of Directors
Frank is on point.

Zack try doing smaller water changes.
If the info is correct sounds like nitrate poisoning. fish will become lethargic and may have open sores or red blotches bruises etc. It is common for fish kept at high levels to die suddenly. Some will get accustomed to the new water but doesn't seem nice to do.






Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 

zackcrack00

Members
I had no idea! I feel a little guilty, now. I've done many changes like this, and we do the same at the store. 75-90% changes on a weekly basis. Fish usually seem fine, but this makes sense as to why just the tanks with fairly fragile or small fish that had larger water changes died. I'll keep an eye on it. Thank you so much, guys. Always a big help!!!


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Wouldn't the new water be much lower in nitrate than water prior to the addition of the system?

That entire tanks of fish would all succumb to the chronic effects of (living their lives in) excess nitrate seems like too much of a coincidence to me.

Other aspects of the water could be quite different (e.g. different "salts" in the water), so maybe the large water changes induced shock.

The question going forward is: Is it safe to use tap for water changes?

I'd do smaller, more frequent water changes and see how the fish adapt to the new water chemistry and - if things are OK - transition back to larger ones.

If smaller water changes seem to result in discomfort or other issues, then you'll need to figure out a plan "B" for tap water (maybe reverse osmosis).

Matt


You might be seeing the effects of high nitrate ion on the fish now from them being exposed to high nitrate ion before you got the nitrate filter.

http://www.fishtanksandponds.co.uk/aquarium-science/nitrate.html

this site indicates 25 ppm nitrate ion is too high for aquarium fish. Different types of fish have different levels of tolerance to nitrate ions. Trout can only tolerate about 8 ppm. Goldfish can tolerate 1000 ppm. Effects of over exposure to nitrate is internal organ damage.

Internal organ damage could explain the brusing you are seeing on the fish, that is the red spots that appear to be internal.

Nitrate really should be below 10 in my opinion. If the nitrate level increases slowly as is the case when a tank does not undergo routine water changes for 6 months or so, the fish can tolerate the slow rise in nitrate ion concentration. These fish often die when the water is suddenly changed, but of course there is a lot going on in such a change from heavily polluted water to fresh clean water. Fish do not like rapid changes.
 

mchambers

Former CCA member
I agree with Matt Quinn. Have you measured your tap water for other parameters, such as TDS? Can you do other tests at the store where you work?
 

zackcrack00

Members
Yes, the new water has lower nitrates, 0, actually. Ammonia, nitrite are 0, as well. pH = 7.4-7.6

I'll see if I can find my gh and kh test kits.

I don't have a TDS meter or know of anyone that does. The store doesn't, either.

Maybe another important thing - some of the tanks' water is cloudy. Just a tint or a shade, but noticeable. Bacteria? What is this?

Also, from 40ish nitrate to a 50-75% change, the water would have 10-20 nitrate, isn't that a small jump? Some tanks were 80+, but some were 40 and got 75% changed, and therefore are 10ish. That's not a large difference, is it?


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 

zackcrack00

Members
Technical Data


CQ-N250 is a macroporous strong base anion resin which is specially designed for the removal of nitrates from water for potable processes. The macroporous matrix and special ion exchange group functionality imparts ideal nitrate selectivity to CQ-N250 making this resin particularly suitable for nitrate removal even when moderate to high concentrations of sulphate are present. Hence this resin gives superior performance in nitrate removal applications when compared with standard exchange resins.
A requirement of the nitrate removal process is to produce potable water meeting the quality standard defined by the European Economic Community in the Directive
No. 80/778 of July 1980. This directive limits the nitrates to a maximum admissable concentration (M.A.C.) of 50 mg NO3/l. The U.S.A. drinking water regulations limit nitrates to 45 mg NO3/l.






REGENERATION

Sodium chloride is generally preferred for regeneration for reasons of cost and efficiency. When available sea water can be used quite effectively. The use of softened water for make up of regenerant and rinse is often recommended to avoid the precipitation of calcium carbonate in and around the CQ-N250 (or any other resin used in this application). Although the precipitation is not particularly detrimental in the short term, the long term effects may include increased resin attrition and leakage of nitrates.


PRECONDITIONING PROCEDURE

CQ-N250 is processed to insure that it meets the requirements for use in the treatment of potable water. On installation it is recommended that the resin be regenerated with two bed volumes of 6% NaCl followed by a rinse of four bed volumes of potable water, prior to use.


HYDRAULIC CHARACTERISTICS

The pressure drop or headloss across a properly classified bed of ion exchange resin depends on the particle size distribution, bed depth, and void volume of the exchange material as well as on the viscosity (and hence on the temperature) of the influent solution. Factors affecting any of these parameters, for example the presence of particulate matter filtered out by the bed, abnormal compressability of the resin, or the incomplete classification of the bed will have an adverse effect and result in an increased headloss. Depending on the quality of the influent water, the application and the design of the plant, service flow rates may vary from 10 - 40 bed volumes/hour (1 - 5 gpm/ft3). Typical pressure drop data is given in Fig. 1.



During upflow backwash, the resin bed should be expanded in volume by between 50 and 70%. This operation will free it from any particulate matter, clear the bed of bubbles and voids, and reclassify the resin particles, ensuring minimum resistance to flow. Bed expansion increases with flow rate and decreases with temperature, as shown in Fig. 2. Care should be taken to avoid over expansion of the bed.


OPERATING PERFORMANCE

The high selectivity of CQ-N250 for nitrate over sulphate ensures that any necessary reduction in nitrate levels can be achieved even in the presence of high influent sulphate concentration. Hence it so offers the advantage over standard strong base resins that its exchange capacity for nitrates is less affected by a high influent concentration of sulphate. For this reason, although CQ-N250 has a lower total exchange capacity than standard strong base anion resin, its use can produce advantageously higher throughputs for the following reasons.

Both standard gel type or macroporous strong base resins are quite capable of effective nitrate removal where sulphate to total anion ratios are low. However, on account of the high selectivity for sulphate in dilute solutions which follows the order,

HCO3- < Cl- < NO3- < SO4=

selective displacement of nitrate by sulphate results in the effective nitrate removal capacity being reduced by sulphate loading. Apart from the obvious disadvantage of the reduction of treated water obtained on cycling, the exchange of both nitrate and sulphate by chloride will result in a less palatable and sometimes less acceptable water than the influent supply, in that the treated water may be more corrosive and the limits for chloride concentration may be exceeded.



CO-CURRENT REGENERATION




Fig. 3 and Fig. 4 give the operating capacity and nitrate leakage respectively which may be obtained using cocurrent regeneration at the given regeneration levels. Values obtained from Fig. 3 are expressed in terms of nitrate throughput, corrected for nitrate leakage, and hence may not be used directly to determine the throughput of water. All ion concentration values are either on a ppm or a meq/l basis for ratio determination.





Similarly Fig. 5 and Fig. 6 give the values for countercurrent regeneration. It should be noted that in this case the nitrate leakage is lower for a given regeneration level. Hence the possibility to blend treated with untreated water on a 50% basis is a useful option which can make counter-current regeneration attractive. On the other hand the choice of co-current regeneration can result in the production of higher volumes of treated water of satisfactory quality for direct use. The higher leakage (ln, lnp, in the equations above) so reduces the load on the ion exchange bed that for a given operating capacity greater throughputs per cycle are obtained. This latter effect can influence the throughput more than differences in basic operating capacity. It therefore follows that both capacity and leakage for alternative modes of regeneration should be evaluated before recommending specific design conditions.


CO-CURRENT REGENERATION



Presupposing that the objective of the nitrate removal treatment is to obtain potable water of a quality which meets the World Health Organization (WHO) limit, where the nitrate/(nitrate + sulphate) ratio is higher than 0.6, a nitrate selective resin is not necessary. A standard strong base resin can give higher throughputs as a result of its higher total capacity. It will be seen that up to the ratio of 0.6 the curves in Figs. 3 - 6 are continuous to show where CQ-N250 is the recommended resin. The discontinuous curves are given so that comparisons may be made with alternative resins. Where lower leakages than the WHO limit are required, for example in the processing of certain foods, CQ-N250 will often give a superior performance to the standard resins even where nitrate/(nitrate + sulphate) ratios are higher than 0.6. One particular advantage here is that there is no slug of highly concentrated nitrate at breakthrough as is found with standard resins, hence the possibility to excessively contaminate the food product by overrunning the bed is avoided.


EXAMPLE OF CALCULATION



Depending upon the throughput requirement the resin volume is chosen so as to operate within the flow rate stipulations given in the standard operating conditions above. A design factor of 0.9 is also recommended as is customary. Hence throughput/liter of resin for design purposes will be 313 x 0.9 = 281.7 liters (2124 U.S. gal/ft3). In this example the leakage is 17.3 ppm as CaCO3 (21.4ppm as NO3), hence the useful option to blend treated water with raw water on a 50% basis could be applied. It would be of no advantage to move to counter-current regeneration in this case. Reference to Fig. 5 will show that the basic capacity curve is very similar. However the throughput will be lower, because the reduced leakage increases the ion exchange load for a given throughput. When on the other hand nitrate concentrations or ratios are higher, it may be advantageous to operate counter-current rather than increase the regeneration level while operating co-current. In this way a suitable blend may be obtained with lower regenerant costs (and costs of disposal).




Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app
 
EPA set the limit of nitrate in drinking water at 10 ppm. Your water has 4 times the EPA limit. So your concern is not just fish health, but human health. Your fish death is a canary warning and you've got to treat your water to protect your family health.

In farming belt, it is not uncommon to have nitrate pollution from fertilizer leaching to groundwater. A way to avoid it is to drill deeper well away from shallow pollution.
 

jonclark96

Past CCA President
EPA set the limit of nitrate in drinking water at 10 ppm. Your water has 4 times the EPA limit. So your concern is not just fish health, but human health. Your fish death is a canary warning and you've got to treat your water to protect your family health.

In farming belt, it is not uncommon to have nitrate pollution from fertilizer leaching to groundwater. A way to avoid it is to drill deeper well away from shallow pollution.

I think they added the house nitrate filter because of the high nitrates out of the tap, specifically because it is bad for human consumption. The fish deaths happened AFTER the filter was installed.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
What Jon said: The reason that they installed the system is to reduce the nitrates in their drinking water.

Chalk one up for the fish hobby in identifying a possible human health hazard :)

My best guess as to why the fish died and/or were in distress is shock in reaction to large water changes with water with different "salt" composition than what they were used to (and not lower nitrates).

Zach - have you done small water changes with tap water to any of your other tanks? Any reaction?

Matt
 
Top