Does Prime Go Bad?

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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Run for it - it's the thought police

this thread seems to have gotten a little bit off topic. all the discussion about canister filters and nitrate really has nothing to do with holly's nitrite spikes. Excess nitrate has nothing to do with nitrite levels and excess deterius in the tank wont kill beneficial bacteria, causing a mini-cycle and therefore nitrites to be present.

Holly - glad you are going to try and change your water changing process, I think something in that process is causing your issues. don't overdue it on the prime, you can double/triple the dosing but that isn't necessary. In addition to the process to fill the tank, what/how are you draining it? if you are using a python, where is that stored when not in use? where are your buckets stored? I am very careful always keep those items in a clean area where there are no cleaning supplies, pesticides, etc.

"Off topic" can be a very good thing and who's to say that it doesn't circle back with an answer to the question? It's certainly more inciteful than postulating about the possibility of pesticide drenched rubber tubing, more so since Ms. Hollyfish is a precise and immaculate human being, almost distressingly so.:D

Boarding call...and away we go.
 

mchambers

Former CCA member
Inciteful vs. Insightful!

"Off topic" can be a very good thing and who's to say that it doesn't circle back with an answer to the question? It's certainly more inciteful than postulating about the possibility of pesticide drenched rubber tubing, more so since Ms. Hollyfish is a precise and immaculate human being, almost distressingly so.:D

Boarding call...and away we go.
Safe travels!
 

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Plenipotentiary-at-large
Oops

My bad, although given the evolution and robust nature of discussion, either actually applies. Just don't imagine that a grammatical faux pas is going to result in some sort of contrition on my part.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Response from Seachem:

Thanks for the email and for your interest in our opinion. It is very important to clean your mechanical filter (sponges, filter floss, wool, etc) often and properly. This will help to keep the rest of the filter media (chemical and biological) running more efficiently.

By cleaning your mechanical filter out often, you are removing any large, undissolved particulates that could potentially exhaust your chemical media quicker or clog your biological media. Neither is good.


Matt
A query to the experts at Seachem:

How important is regular cleaning/changing mechanical filtration to maintaining superior water quality?

In addition to weekly partial water changes and (more frequent) siphoning of waste, I regularly (at least weekly) rinse or replace the mechanical media (fluff and/or sponges) in my filters.

I have moved away from canister filters (toward sumps w/pre-filters and air-driven boxes) because cleaning canisters takes much more time than simply rinsing and replacing fluff in a box or pre-filter.

The goal of this fastidiousness is to remove waste (uneaten food, feces, etc.) before it enters the nitrogen cycle: less waste in the system = less nitrate produced down the line, which means that dilution of nitrates (and other dissolved organics and nitrogenous waste) is that much more effective (get's me closer to zero), at least that's my theory.

Some of my buddies have told me that I'm wasting my time and that the robust biological filtration that we have reduces waste to nitrates in no time and that frequent cleaning of mechanical filtration (and gravel vacuuming) is largely for aesthetics. Many use canister filters and don't change them until the accumulation of waste slows their flow (often months). They're able to maintain manageable levels of nitrates through large water changes and use of plants.

We mostly keep cichlids, so most are not too sensitive. Both approaches yield seemingly happy, breeding cichlids!

Is a dirty (canister) filter a point source of pollution for a tank or something that's OK?

Thanks for your insight,
Matt

PS I also use a lot of Poret foam in my fishroom and, like other media, I clean (meaning siphon and dip in tap water to remove physical waste from it) regularly. My friends generally don't. Am I doing too much work?
 

neut

Members
I am utterly confused by that statement. Filtration is nearly always both mechanical and biological.
I'm not confused. You're absolutely right (with an occasional exception, such as fluidized bed sand filters which don't do mechanical filtration, unless you add a pre-filter). Virtually any media will be colonized by nitrifying bacteria in time, given water flow, oxygen, and nutrients (ammonia/nitrite). Sure, the extent of mechanical filtration will vary with fluid dynamics or water flow and exactly which media.

Excess nitrate has nothing to do with nitrite levels and excess deterius in the tank wont kill beneficial bacteria, causing a mini-cycle and therefore nitrites to be present.
More or less true. Naturally, more ammonia--> nitrite = more nitrates produced. Under some conditions, de-nitification (anaerobic) can produce nitrite from nitrate. A sludge filled tank can affect redox, which won't cause a mini-cycle but can affect how efficiently wastes are broken down.

Response from Seachem:

Thanks for the email and for your interest in our opinion. It is very important to clean your mechanical filter (sponges, filter floss, wool, etc) often and properly. This will help to keep the rest of the filter media (chemical and biological) running more efficiently.

By cleaning your mechanical filter out often, you are removing any large, undissolved particulates that could potentially exhaust your chemical media quicker or clog your biological media. Neither is good.
More or less agree, and I'm one who prefers keeping sludge, mulm, whatever, low. Which means I vacuumed gravel (back when I used to have gravel) thoroughly with each water change. Sand is a different story, partly because de-nitrification can take place at varying oxygen gradients in the sand. I don't want high sludge/low oxygen conditions in my filters. But how often to clean media varies and, quite obviously, completely depends on individual setup, variables including stock, feeding, filtration, filter flow, redox, etc.

You can have a filter combination of a fast HOB filter and a slow-ish canister flow (like classic Eheims, 2217 or smaller) where the HOB captures enough of the particulates that your canister doesn't need to be cleaned often.

You can have enough total canister filtration vs. tank/bioload and/or enough water changed, oxygenation, mineralization, and various other aspects of redox, such that waste is broken down efficiently enough to require only occasional filter cleaning, or you can have the reverse and need frequent filter cleaning.

I really don't see the point in debating canister filters. They're an option and personal preference that quite obviously can be thoroughly successful, especially fw tanks. Just as obviously, there are a variety of ways to approach filtration and everyone has their own preferences. And, no, canisters are not nitrate factories when well maintained-- one of my tanks is a 135 with two Eheim 2217s, weekly 30-35% water changes (sometimes more), no plants, currently 16 Cyphotilapia 4-9+ inches, plus a few other fish, filters get cleaned every two or three months on average and nitrates stay about 5.

As far as cleaning filter media, in my case: well water straight from the tap (no possible chlorine), temperature roughly matched to tank temperature, and it doesn't discernibly disturb bio media and doesn't affect water quality-- and I've experimented with cleaning 100% of the media for a tank and still no problem. Not to say this will work for everyone with varying setups and water sources. So not much help there. My filter cleaning schedule completely depends on tank and filters, varying between weekly and every couple of months or so. What I do know is replacing media of whatever type means you reduced your bacteria colony by whatever % of it was residing on the media you disposed of, potentially an issue if you replace too much media.

Most anything else I can think of-- such as ammonia present in tap water, which can happen-- wouldn't necessarily explain why one tank would have nitrite issues and others wouldn't.
 
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I went on the Python web site in my quest to buy the right submersible pump to use with water changes and you will love what they recommend:

5 to 10 percent water changes every OTHER week

WTH?
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
I think it really speaks to the durability of many freshwater fish.

I've gotta believe that (sadly) 95% of aquarium fish kept today would be lucky to receive a weekly (monthly) water change of any kind. Or their filters cleaned ever.

Having worked in a fish store, all I can say is, "The horror, the horror..." At least back in the day, people bought their set-ups and fish from a fish store. Now it's mostly Mart-stores or online.

How frequently one should clean/change the mechanical media on your filter is largely an academic exercise if you're doing regular partial water changes and keeping freshwater fish.

While our Craigslist-combers might find lots of deals, most of the tanks online represent a failed foray into fishkeeping for someone: What started with promise has ended as something taking up space in the garage...that needs to go before winter. Or a bubbling cauldron in the living room.

It's really not hard to be successful with a little mentor-ship and an understanding of the basics. But how do we connect with the folks most in need?

What can our club do to help?

Matt
 

ezrk

Members
I think that's a non-answer, at best. But thanks for trying, in all seriousness.

There is a post from Dr. Tim partially looking at some academic research on bio-filtration in which he suggests he isn't a huge fan of canister filters. Not because of a the "nitrate bomb" issues but rather as they start to fill with detritus that the detritus covers up the bio-media and that the biological filtration happens in a very small area (like 100 microns off the media or so IIRC) so when they "clog" the bacteria can't act very effectively.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Have a link?

There is a post from Dr. Tim partially looking at some academic research on bio-filtration in which he suggests he isn't a huge fan of canister filters. Not because of a the "nitrate bomb" issues but rather as they start to fill with detritus that the detritus covers up the bio-media and that the biological filtration happens in a very small area (like 100 microns off the media or so IIRC) so when they "clog" the bacteria can't act very effectively.
 

ezrk

Members
I think it really speaks to the durability of many freshwater fish.

Not that I recommend it...but we estimate that when we first set-up a tank (and didn't know what we were really doing) that our Nitrite hit 8-10ppm with fish in the tank, said fish are still (well the ones we still have) alive and doing fine.

We occasionally to some compulsive water testing to try and understand what is up in our tanks and find we have pretty high levels of nitrate, we estimate our tanks pick up 60ppm or so of nitrate over the course of a week - going from probably 10-20ppm after an 75-80% water change to near 80ppm at the end of the week.

I would like to try more aggressive mechanical filtration, ala filter socks, but my sumps are not set up for it very well. I have considered re-arranging the sumps, but that is a lot of work...
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Of course, anything with a surface in a fish tank becomes quickly colonized by nitrifying bacteria.

That's missing the point:

Running box filters with lots of air and frequently changing the fluff maximizes their effectiveness as mechanical filters (i.e. capturing physical waste in the tank) and minimizes their effectiveness as bio filtration.

Running sponge filters with lower air maximizes their effectiveness as bio filters (slow, steady flow through unclogged large surface area) while minimizing their effectiveness as mechanical filtration.

Will the fluff or sponge in a box filter harbor lots of nitrifying bacteria if left for some period of time? Absolutely. But I remove and rinse or discard the nastiness-laded fluff too frequently for this to happen.

Will a sponge filter (especially one with a bunch of air running through it) act as a mechanical filter? Absolutely. I cleaned a sponge filter (in a tank without a box filter) last weekend and it was absolutely filthy after just a couple of weeks. The ones with less air and coupled with a box are much cleaner.

Matt




I'm not confused. You're absolutely right (with an occasional exception, such as fluidized bed sand filters which don't do mechanical filtration, unless you add a pre-filter). Virtually any media will be colonized by nitrifying bacteria in time, given water flow, oxygen, and nutrients (ammonia/nitrite). Sure, the extent of mechanical filtration will vary with fluid dynamics or water flow and exactly which media.
 
How do fish survive 8-9 ppm? I lost a fish in that tank, which never got above 1 ppm.

On an unrelated note, I did some maintenance on the affected tank yesterday (for the first time since the debacle got solved) and the water was cold. Checked the temp -- about 70. Checked the heater -- cracked! I have no idea when it stopped working, but I didn't unplug it during the massive water changes, so there you go. I put in another heater and then it was a bit too good and pushed the temp over night to 82. Jeez, poor dears. Turned it down and hope for the best. They were active and happy this morning, despite the sauna . . .
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
You might experiment with box filters - they're cheap, are excellent mechanical filters, aerate the water well, easy to clean and can be hidden behind a rock. Whenever I clean a box filter, I'm removing a bunch of crud that would otherwise be in the tank...

I use a 3-drawer plastic cabinet (kind of like this:http://www.amazon.com/Sterilite-ClearView-Storage-Drawer-Organizer/dp/B001KN12PI) on the dump filter on my 150g with royal plecos. I drilled holes in the bottom of each drawer to allow water to trickle through.

All 3 drawers are filled with mechanical filtration (before emptying into a bunch of bio). The first is just cross-stitch stuff (which collects the big stuff). The second and third are fluff.

To clean, I just turn off the pump and replace the fluff in a drawer...

Matt

Not that I recommend it...but we estimate that when we first set-up a tank (and didn't know what we were really doing) that our Nitrite hit 8-10ppm with fish in the tank, said fish are still (well the ones we still have) alive and doing fine.

We occasionally to some compulsive water testing to try and understand what is up in our tanks and find we have pretty high levels of nitrate, we estimate our tanks pick up 60ppm or so of nitrate over the course of a week - going from probably 10-20ppm after an 75-80% water change to near 80ppm at the end of the week.

I would like to try more aggressive mechanical filtration, ala filter socks, but my sumps are not set up for it very well. I have considered re-arranging the sumps, but that is a lot of work...
 

ezrk

Members
Have a link?

From this thread, which (and its split counterpart) started off fairly contentious but I found it evolved into one of the better threads on bio-filtration I have seen.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=246211

I am not, and never have been, a believer in doing nitrification in a sealed canister filter and have also always believed that the mechanical and biological filters should be separated - hence the biowheel.

A great illustration of why is provided in the image below. This is not my work (wish it was!) But using microelectrodes these researchers showed that the zone of nitrification in a biofilm is ONLY around 100 micron thick - that's microns - very very small. In the image it is the black area with the blue area the water above the nitrifying bacteria zone.

If you add a layer of gunk on top of the nitrifying zone you won't get oxygen to the nitrifying zone and the process will not work.

This is why keeping the biofilm thin is the best course of action along with not letting it get buried with gunk. The nitrifier biofilm is also pretty sticky so what you are doing by gently dunking but not scrubbing the media is the right thing to do. Plus there is not reason to get the gunk in the tank - trap it and remove it. So I agree with what you doing.

Cheers

DrTim
The other really key point from Dr Tim in this thread is this:

You always want to be careful with chlorinated water but the biofilm does provide a good layer of protection for the nitrifying bacteria. This is actually a major problem for water distribution companies because they have found that they have to add even more chlorine/chloramine to the water to disinfect it because the biofilm of nitrifiers on the inside of the pipes are quite resistant to the 'normal' chlorine levels.

A quick wash/rinse will not hurt the nitrifiers. If you add add the chlorinated water directly to the tank with fish in the tank I would be more worried about the fish than the bacteria.
 
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